Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by grizgirl » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:45 am

VimSince03 wrote:This is pretty simple guys. NDSU controls the clock, they force you to play their game and make you one dimensional, they get the lead,....and then they crush you slowly. How do they do this? They all simply do their job. A cliched line but NDSU doesn't do anything special. They are a well-oiled machine where every kid buys in when they arrive on campus.
This is a fun subject and I'm not sure where I stand on it. NDSU in the Big Sky never even crossed my mind until now. I think Vim03 just described why so many teams lose to NDSU. They sometimes lose to them because they lost to them, not NDSU beats them. When you can't get past being in awe of your opposition, you're beat before you set foot on the field. I think we beat them because we weren't in awe of them that first game. We believed in Stitt and his offense, but by the time we played them again too many doubts had built up and we were crushed before we got there. Several BSC offenses can throw a lot of points on the board quickly and I don't think NDSU is a come from behind team, so it'd be interesting. NDSU is built to play in a conference like the MVFC.


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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by VimSince03 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:50 am

grizgirl wrote:
VimSince03 wrote:This is pretty simple guys. NDSU controls the clock, they force you to play their game and make you one dimensional, they get the lead,....and then they crush you slowly. How do they do this? They all simply do their job. A cliched line but NDSU doesn't do anything special. They are a well-oiled machine where every kid buys in when they arrive on campus.
This is a fun subject and I'm not sure where I stand on it. NDSU in the Big Sky never even crossed my mind until now. I think Vim03 just described why so many teams lose to NDSU. They sometimes lose to them because they lost to them, not NDSU beats them. When you can't get past being in awe of your opposition, you're beat before you set foot on the field. I think we beat them because we weren't in awe of them that first game. We believed in Stitt and his offense, but by the time we played them again too many doubts had built up and we were crushed before we got there. Several BSC offenses can throw a lot of points on the board quickly and I don't think NDSU is a come from behind team, so it'd be interesting. NDSU is built to play in a conference like the MVFC.
Psychological factors I think definitely come into play. But like you said grizgirl, you can't be in awe. Just have to line up and play football. But it isn't like all these teams are beating themselves and not the Bison beating them. The Bison have a plan every game and it works to near perfection almost every game.


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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by grizgirl » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:56 am

VimSince03 wrote:
grizgirl wrote:
VimSince03 wrote:This is pretty simple guys. NDSU controls the clock, they force you to play their game and make you one dimensional, they get the lead,....and then they crush you slowly. How do they do this? They all simply do their job. A cliched line but NDSU doesn't do anything special. They are a well-oiled machine where every kid buys in when they arrive on campus.
This is a fun subject and I'm not sure where I stand on it. NDSU in the Big Sky never even crossed my mind until now. I think Vim03 just described why so many teams lose to NDSU. They sometimes lose to them because they lost to them, not NDSU beats them. When you can't get past being in awe of your opposition, you're beat before you set foot on the field. I think we beat them because we weren't in awe of them that first game. We believed in Stitt and his offense, but by the time we played them again too many doubts had built up and we were crushed before we got there. Several BSC offenses can throw a lot of points on the board quickly and I don't think NDSU is a come from behind team, so it'd be interesting. NDSU is built to play in a conference like the MVFC.
Psychological factors I think definitely come into play. But like you said grizgirl, you can't be in awe. Just have to line up and play football. But it isn't like all these teams are beating themselves and not the Bison beating them. The Bison have a plan every game and it works to near perfection almost every game.
Which is exactly why I didn't say ALL of them were.


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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by grizpack » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:28 am

No. Their conference is MUCH better than the BSC. The top of the BSC is fair to decent (not great). The bottom is horrible. And this is from a Griz fan.



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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by JDoub » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:55 am

VimSince03 wrote:This is why I have been saying the past few years that UND will be a power in this conference eventually. Once they fix the leaks in their system, their brand of football (run the rock with a stingy defense) will work in this conference.
I seem to remember that is what we tried to do by bringing in NDSU's football coach in 1986. Not the result we were looking for.

Difference being, NDSU is more multi-dimensional on offense than most perceive. It's often hard to distinguish between NDSU and most NFL offenses.

UNI has played the Bison well in recent years, by following the same formula.



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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by bobcat99 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:14 pm

JDoub wrote:
VimSince03 wrote:This is why I have been saying the past few years that UND will be a power in this conference eventually. Once they fix the leaks in their system, their brand of football (run the rock with a stingy defense) will work in this conference.
I seem to remember that is what we tried to do by bringing in NDSU's football coach in 1986. Not the result we were looking for.

Difference being, NDSU is more multi-dimensional on offense than most perceive. It's often hard to distinguish between NDSU and most NFL offenses.

UNI has played the Bison well in recent years, by following the same formula.
I disagree. The NDSU offense is much more basic than an NFL offense. They're essentially rooted in a power option and work in play action that plays off of that. Wentz rarely had to go through multiple reads. They're just really good at what they do.



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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by BleedingBLue » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:31 pm

grizgirl wrote:
VimSince03 wrote:This is pretty simple guys. NDSU controls the clock, they force you to play their game and make you one dimensional, they get the lead,....and then they crush you slowly. How do they do this? They all simply do their job. A cliched line but NDSU doesn't do anything special. They are a well-oiled machine where every kid buys in when they arrive on campus.
This is a fun subject and I'm not sure where I stand on it. NDSU in the Big Sky never even crossed my mind until now. I think Vim03 just described why so many teams lose to NDSU. They sometimes lose to them because they lost to them, not NDSU beats them. When you can't get past being in awe of your opposition, you're beat before you set foot on the field. I think we beat them because we weren't in awe of them that first game. We believed in Stitt and his offense, but by the time we played them again too many doubts had built up and we were crushed before we got there. Several BSC offenses can throw a lot of points on the board quickly and I don't think NDSU is a come from behind team, so it'd be interesting. NDSU is built to play in a conference like the MVFC.
I would disagree a little on the come from behind point. They may not be built to erase large deficits offensively, but they have won a TON of games the last 5 years where they came from 7-14 down late in the 3rd early in the 4th and won on the final possession or 2. Even the high powered offenses of the BSC would have a tough time build a big enough lead to be "safe".



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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by Anacomando » Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:42 am

Would the Warriors be wore down by the defense of Eastern Conference? No. They are the Warriors. The Bison are the Bison. 5 titles in a row and every time they've faced a prolific offense look what happens. They lost one game so to speak in 5 years.



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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by lutecat » Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:54 pm

Would the 85 bears be worn down by the BSC offneses? I think we all know the answer to that.


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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by TomCat88 » Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:35 pm

tampa_griz wrote:
TomCat88 wrote:
tampa_griz wrote:
TomCat88 wrote:A very hypocritical question, but considering the BSC has never had a team establish a high ranking (statistically) defense, would NDSU eventually come into the BSC fold and be yet another pass-happy, high-scoring team that seemingly puts defense on the back burner? Teams in the BSC have tried the ground n pound offense to compliment a stout defense, but none have succeeded in the past 20+ years. Could NDSU do it or would they have to cave to the BSC ways? I often wonder if the BSC isn't its own worst enemy.
Wasn't that pretty much the essence of Bobby Ball?
Could be, I'll have to check the stats. When I think of UM's runner up teams I think of Ochs, Bergquist and Selle throwing 30-35 passes. Mariani, Ferriter and Heidelberger, Segars. And Reynolds and Hilliard getting 20 carries. When I think of NDSU's champion teams I think of Crockett, McNorton and Ojuri getting 40-50 carries combined. Jensen and Wentz getting about 20 pass attempts, but I honestly can't think of one WR at NDSU.
Yeah that's true. I just remember most of Hauck's Griz detractors complaining of the "boring" offense. And I guess that's how I remember it too. Give the big guy the ball and have him sit on it. Especially after Ochs graduated.
After conducting a cursory review of the stats I will say that UM under Hauck was a ground n pound team by BSC standards. NDSU is at a whole other level. The Griz would run for around 170 per game and pass for 230. NDSU runs for about 225 and throws for 170. But I do wonder if NDSU would've been able to establish that as a BSC team. MSU tried that in the 80s under Solomonson and it failed epically. Choate made reference to Alabama and NDSU in the Bobcat Insider video, so he may be gunning to do the same. Had NDSU joined the BSC instead of the mvfc would the results be the same? You're a product of your environment as the saying goes. That doesn't always apply to football, but the passing trend in the BSC has been entrenched for decades.


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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by VimSince03 » Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:40 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
tampa_griz wrote:
TomCat88 wrote:
tampa_griz wrote:
TomCat88 wrote:A very hypocritical question, but considering the BSC has never had a team establish a high ranking (statistically) defense, would NDSU eventually come into the BSC fold and be yet another pass-happy, high-scoring team that seemingly puts defense on the back burner? Teams in the BSC have tried the ground n pound offense to compliment a stout defense, but none have succeeded in the past 20+ years. Could NDSU do it or would they have to cave to the BSC ways? I often wonder if the BSC isn't its own worst enemy.
Wasn't that pretty much the essence of Bobby Ball?
Could be, I'll have to check the stats. When I think of UM's runner up teams I think of Ochs, Bergquist and Selle throwing 30-35 passes. Mariani, Ferriter and Heidelberger, Segars. And Reynolds and Hilliard getting 20 carries. When I think of NDSU's champion teams I think of Crockett, McNorton and Ojuri getting 40-50 carries combined. Jensen and Wentz getting about 20 pass attempts, but I honestly can't think of one WR at NDSU.
Yeah that's true. I just remember most of Hauck's Griz detractors complaining of the "boring" offense. And I guess that's how I remember it too. Give the big guy the ball and have him sit on it. Especially after Ochs graduated.
After conducting a cursory review of the stats I will say that UM under Hauck was a ground n pound team by BSC standards. NDSU is at a whole other level. The Griz would run for around 170 per game and pass for 230. NDSU runs for about 225 and throws for 170. But I do wonder if NDSU would've been able to establish that as a BSC team. MSU tried that in the 80s under Solomonson and it failed epically. Choate made reference to Alabama and NDSU in the Bobcat Insider video, so he may be gunning to do the same. Had NDSU joined the BSC instead of the mvfc would the results be the same? You're a product of your environment as the saying goes. That doesn't always apply to football, but the passing trend in the BSC has been entrenched for decades.
This is all true Tom but NDSU went up against "run and gun" offenses plenty and they either shot it out with them or stopped them cold. Not every team in the MVFC has been a "ground and pound" team and not every offense in the Big Sky has been "high flying" over the past 10 years. When we won the conference in McGhee's earlier years, we were predominantly a "ground & pound" team, especially under Wright as offensive coordinator.


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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by iaafan » Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:31 am

Mike Kramer always used to insist that to win in the Big Sky you need to pass the ball. No one has proven him wrong yet, but if anyone could do it you'd have to think NDSU could. Now that they're going full tilt they could probably drop into the BSC and keep rolling, but if they had joined the BSC right when they went from Div. II to FCS it would be a lot tougher.

As for that UM-NDSU comparison my math shows UM at 160 run/245 pass during Hauck's good years and NDSU at 221 run/185 pass the past five years.

You may be asking yourself, how does this relate to MSU football? Well, when I listen to Choate he sure sounds like he's leaning toward being more like NDSU, but I bet it ends up being more like Hauck's UM teams. It's just hard to become a run-heavy team in the BSC.



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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by Bobcat4Ever » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:29 am

iaafan wrote:It's just hard to become a run-heavy team in the BSC.
Yup. Cal Poly led the FCS nation in rushing and we all know how that turned out.



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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by iaafan » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:18 am

Cal Poly. I hadn't even thought about them, but that's a fair example. While they do run it well and, as you said, it hasn't paid great dividends. Not exactly the NDSU style of run heavy offense though.



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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by BleedingBLue » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:58 am

iaafan wrote:Cal Poly. I hadn't even thought about them, but that's a fair example. While they do run it well and, as you said, it hasn't paid great dividends. Not exactly the NDSU style of run heavy offense though.
I don't think that is a fair example at all. They weren't a ground and pound team with a dang good passer under center. They were a triple option team that tried to surprise with a pass now and then. You can't really compare the 2 as they are polar opposites when it comes to offensive style, even if both styles involve running the ball down your throat.



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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by iaafan » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:43 am

Yes, it's a fair example. Great, good, fair, poor.



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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by BleedingBLue » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:05 pm

iaafan wrote:Yes, it's a fair example. Great, good, fair, poor.
When you put it that way I would say that is a... fair... assessment :lol:



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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by PapaG » Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:40 pm

VimSince03 wrote:This is pretty simple guys. NDSU controls the clock, they force you to play their game and make you one dimensional, they get the lead,....and then they crush you slowly. How do they do this? They all simply do their job. A cliched line but NDSU doesn't do anything special. They are a well-oiled machine where every kid buys in when they arrive on campus.
Their talent level is as good as any other FCS team, though, which doesn't hurt. Shows what coaching can do, doesn't it?


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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by blueandgoldblitz » Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:11 am

I was wondering this for the past couple weeks and this seems like the thread to put it in. Do you guys think the Bison winning the last 5 championships has been bad for the FCS as a whole? It's almost a forgone conclusion every year that the Bison are going to win the championship anymore. Or at least compete heavily for it. Does that reflect poorly on FCS football as a whole? I know hardcore FCS fans don't care, but casual fans may be turned off by the same team winning the championship year after year. Thoughts?



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Re: Would the BSC wear down NDSU?

Post by TomCat88 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:45 am

blueandgoldblitz wrote:I was wondering this for the past couple weeks and this seems like the thread to put it in. Do you guys think the Bison winning the last 5 championships has been bad for the FCS as a whole? It's almost a forgone conclusion every year that the Bison are going to win the championship anymore. Or at least compete heavily for it. Does that reflect poorly on FCS football as a whole? I know hardcore FCS fans don't care, but casual fans may be turned off by the same team winning the championship year after year. Thoughts?
I like it. It marks time and gives fans another focal point. I definitely don't concede the title to them every year. They've had their share of breaks, like any team that has won multiple titles in succession. They're a great team and it's a remarkable, historical run.


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