Careful what you wish for, you could get someone worse.

[Bobcat Sig]

This thread illustrates the current divide in the Bobcat fan base, generally.

On one side, we have a set of serious fans expecting more now that the Cats have shown sustained and repeated success. On the other side, we have those that are content with 7-4 seasons, losing the griz repeatedly; just as long as they are good kids and perform academically. To say it another way, just as long as it's good enough, then it's the best we can hope for.

Unfortunately, I think we've outgrown those expectations and Ash's firing was culmination of those expectations.

[wbtfg]

This thread illustrates the current divide in the Bobcat fan base, generally.

On one side, we have a set of serious fans expecting more now that the Cats have shown sustained and repeated success. On the other side, we have those that are content with 7-4 seasons, losing the griz repeatedly; just as long as they are good kids and perform academically. To say it another way, just as long as it's good enough, then it's the best we can hope for.

Unfortunately, I think we've outgrown those expectations and Ash's firing was culmination of those expectations.

In my mind it's kind of like having a girlfriend who was fairly cute, pretty cool, who your parents like, but didn't have the entire package but being afraid to break up with her because it would be hard to find someone better.

I think Ash did a good job, but there's no question the program is in a bit of a decline and needs a shot in the arm. If we're afraid that we wouldn't be able to attract a coach with the who can recruit good kids, graduate them, AND win games, I think we selling our program and ourselves short.

[SonomaCat]

This thread illustrates the current divide in the Bobcat fan base, generally.

On one side, we have a set of serious fans expecting more now that the Cats have shown sustained and repeated success. On the other side, we have those that are content with 7-4 seasons, losing the griz repeatedly; just as long as they are good kids and perform academically. To say it another way, just as long as it's good enough, then it's the best we can hope for.

Unfortunately, I think we've outgrown those expectations and Ash's firing was culmination of those expectations.

It's probably best to not try to paraphrase other people's arguments, as that never seems to work out well. We can all see people's actual arguments, which are always a far better representation of what they think than when somebody who disagrees with them tries to recast their words in order to dismiss them.

For instance, I'm sure nobody is "content" to lose to the Griz repeatedly ... I'm pretty sure nobody here would ever make that argument.

[Bobcat Sig]

This thread illustrates the current divide in the Bobcat fan base, generally.

On one side, we have a set of serious fans expecting more now that the Cats have shown sustained and repeated success. On the other side, we have those that are content with 7-4 seasons, losing the griz repeatedly; just as long as they are good kids and perform academically. To say it another way, just as long as it's good enough, then it's the best we can hope for.

Unfortunately, I think we've outgrown those expectations and Ash's firing was culmination of those expectations.

In my mind it's kind of like having a girlfriend who was fairly cute, pretty cool, who your parents like, but didn't have the entire package but being afraid to break up with her because it would be hard to find someone better.

I think Ash did a good job, but there's no question the program is in a bit of a decline and needs a shot in the arm. If we're afraid that we wouldn't be able to attract a coach with the who can recruit good kids, graduate them, AND win games, I think we selling our program and ourselves short.

This.

[Bobcat Sig]

This thread illustrates the current divide in the Bobcat fan base, generally.

On one side, we have a set of serious fans expecting more now that the Cats have shown sustained and repeated success. On the other side, we have those that are content with 7-4 seasons, losing the griz repeatedly; just as long as they are good kids and perform academically. To say it another way, just as long as it's good enough, then it's the best we can hope for.

Unfortunately, I think we've outgrown those expectations and Ash's firing was culmination of those expectations.

It's probably best to not try to paraphrase other people's arguments, as that never seems to work out well. We can all see people's actual arguments, which are always a far better representation of what they think than when somebody who disagrees with them tries to recast their words in order to dismiss them.

For instance, I'm sure nobody is "content" to lose to the Griz repeatedly ... I'm pretty sure nobody here would ever make that argument.

Not this.

I'm not so much summarizing arguments as I'm summarizing -at a high level- the two camps about Ash and expectations. An observation, if you will. We are still allowed to make those here, right?

[SonomaCat]

This thread illustrates the current divide in the Bobcat fan base, generally.

On one side, we have a set of serious fans expecting more now that the Cats have shown sustained and repeated success. On the other side, we have those that are content with 7-4 seasons, losing the griz repeatedly; just as long as they are good kids and perform academically. To say it another way, just as long as it's good enough, then it's the best we can hope for.

Unfortunately, I think we've outgrown those expectations and Ash's firing was culmination of those expectations.

It's probably best to not try to paraphrase other people's arguments, as that never seems to work out well. We can all see people's actual arguments, which are always a far better representation of what they think than when somebody who disagrees with them tries to recast their words in order to dismiss them.

For instance, I'm sure nobody is "content" to lose to the Griz repeatedly ... I'm pretty sure nobody here would ever make that argument.

Not this.

I'm not so much summarizing arguments as I'm summarizing -at a high level- the two camps about Ash and expectations. An observation, if you will. We are still allowed to make those here, right?

Yep, I didn't stop you from making it -- just pointed out that you were being a little self-serving in doing so as you were trying to make those on the "other side" sound foolish with your straw man argument.

Everybody here wants MSU to win lots and lots of games -- the more the better. Nobody here is content losing to the Griz. The only disagreement is the best way to reach that goal.

I am fine with Ash's firing. I think it's sad, but I also think it's part of the coaching game -- there's a shelf life for coaching staffs in terms of reaching their peak, and it seems reasonable to conclude that Ash was not in the process of elevating the team to the next level. So I'm fine with all of that.

That said, I would never suggest that the people who are not in agreement with his firing are "content" to lose to the Griz or are any less competitive (or less "serious") than I am. We all have our own ways of weighing risks and rewards, and their math is just different from ours. Maybe they are right (and that keeping Ash would have been better for the program and that a new coach will take the program to a worse place) ... but I hope we are right on this one.

[catamaran]

you can only be a serious fan if you wanted coach ash out?

[Bobcat Sig]

This thread illustrates the current divide in the Bobcat fan base, generally.

On one side, we have a set of serious fans expecting more now that the Cats have shown sustained and repeated success. On the other side, we have those that are content with 7-4 seasons, losing the griz repeatedly; just as long as they are good kids and perform academically. To say it another way, just as long as it's good enough, then it's the best we can hope for.

Unfortunately, I think we've outgrown those expectations and Ash's firing was culmination of those expectations.

It's probably best to not try to paraphrase other people's arguments, as that never seems to work out well. We can all see people's actual arguments, which are always a far better representation of what they think than when somebody who disagrees with them tries to recast their words in order to dismiss them.

For instance, I'm sure nobody is "content" to lose to the Griz repeatedly ... I'm pretty sure nobody here would ever make that argument.

Not this.

I'm not so much summarizing arguments as I'm summarizing -at a high level- the two camps about Ash and expectations. An observation, if you will. We are still allowed to make those here, right?

Yep, I didn't stop you from making it -- just pointed out that you were being a little self-serving in doing so as you were trying to make those on the "other side" sound foolish with your straw man argument.

Everybody here wants MSU to win lots and lots of games -- the more the better. Nobody here is content losing to the Griz. The only disagreement is the best way to reach that goal.

If you say so.

[WalkOn79]

This is a statement I dad told me several times as I was complaining about something. What are the chances this could happen?

For sure. This is a huge risk, and one that I wasn't in favor of. The only thing we know for almost certain is that whoever the new coach is won't be any better at running a clean program and bringing in the quality character guys that Ash did. Not gonna happen. Will the new coach beat the griz more times, have a better than .700 winning percentage, win the Big Sky more often, and go further in the playoffs more often than Ash did? Time will tell, but the odds probably say no.

I agree with you 100%. One thing that's for sure is that the message to the new coach is that winning is more important than anything else.

And just to expand on this, what are the odds that the new coach will be able to, improve on the character of the players we're bringing in, do MORE in terms of player involvement in the community, IMPROVE the APR, have FEWER incidents, run ins with the law, have HIGHER graduation rates, bring in MORE $$ via doners and booster support, IMPROVE game day excitement and INCREASE average attendance.... and do all this while IMPROVING on a .700 winning percentage? Tall order.

For the record, I was starting to lean towards change in regime, but was willing to see what happened next season because I thing our D was improving and I believe we were poised for a title run. I am OK with a change in direction but just trying to point out that we are likely going to see steps back in certain areas.

I agree with most of this. Being a Bobcat is not for the timid or weak as Cliff used to say.

[Bobcat Sig]

This is a statement I dad told me several times as I was complaining about something. What are the chances this could happen?

For sure. This is a huge risk, and one that I wasn't in favor of. The only thing we know for almost certain is that whoever the new coach is won't be any better at running a clean program and bringing in the quality character guys that Ash did. Not gonna happen. Will the new coach beat the griz more times, have a better than .700 winning percentage, win the Big Sky more often, and go further in the playoffs more often than Ash did? Time will tell, but the odds probably say no.

I agree with you 100%. One thing that's for sure is that the message to the new coach is that winning is more important than anything else.

And just to expand on this, what are the odds that the new coach will be able to, improve on the character of the players we're bringing in, do MORE in terms of player involvement in the community, IMPROVE the APR, have FEWER incidents, run ins with the law, have HIGHER graduation rates, bring in MORE $$ via doners and booster support, IMPROVE game day excitement and INCREASE average attendance.... and do all this while IMPROVING on a .700 winning percentage? Tall order.

For the record, I was starting to lean towards change in regime, but was willing to see what happened next season because I thing our D was improving and I believe we were poised for a title run. I am OK with a change in direction but just trying to point out that we are likely going to see steps back in certain areas.

I agree with most of this. Being a Bobcat is not for the timid or weak as Cliff used to say.

A labor of love, to be sure.

[KittieKop]

This thread illustrates the current divide in the Bobcat fan base, generally.

On one side, we have a set of serious fans expecting more now that the Cats have shown sustained and repeated success. On the other side, we have those that are content with 7-4 seasons, losing the griz repeatedly; just as long as they are good kids and perform academically. To say it another way, just as long as it's good enough, then it's the best we can hope for.

Unfortunately, I think we've outgrown those expectations and Ash's firing was culmination of those expectations.

It's probably best to not try to paraphrase other people's arguments, as that never seems to work out well. We can all see people's actual arguments, which are always a far better representation of what they think than when somebody who disagrees with them tries to recast their words in order to dismiss them.

For instance, I'm sure nobody is "content" to lose to the Griz repeatedly ... I'm pretty sure nobody here would ever make that argument.

Not this.

I'm not so much summarizing arguments as I'm summarizing -at a high level- the two camps about Ash and expectations. An observation, if you will. We are still allowed to make those here, right?

Yep, I didn't stop you from making it -- just pointed out that you were being a little self-serving in doing so as you were trying to make those on the "other side" sound foolish with your straw man argument.

Everybody here wants MSU to win lots and lots of games -- the more the better. Nobody here is content losing to the Griz. The only disagreement is the best way to reach that goal.

If you say so.

If it's ok for you to mischaracterize those of us defending Coach Ash as content to lose, you surely agree that winning at all costs is really the only standard for you? As long as the Cats best the Griz, nothing else really matters then? Do you see how ridiculous you sound?

[cats2506]

This is a statement I dad told me several times as I was complaining about something. What are the chances this could happen?

For sure. This is a huge risk, and one that I wasn't in favor of. The only thing we know for almost certain is that whoever the new coach is won't be any better at running a clean program and bringing in the quality character guys that Ash did. Not gonna happen. Will the new coach beat the griz more times, have a better than .700 winning percentage, win the Big Sky more often, and go further in the playoffs more often than Ash did? Time will tell, but the odds probably say no.

I agree with you 100%. One thing that's for sure is that the message to the new coach is that winning is more important than anything else.

Find me a college FB coach that doesn't believe that winning isn't the most important thing he has to do, They all know that if they don't win then no matter how good everything else is they are going down the road. Also its the nature of the beast, coaches are very competitive in everything they do.

[Bobcat Sig]

This thread illustrates the current divide in the Bobcat fan base, generally.

On one side, we have a set of serious fans expecting more now that the Cats have shown sustained and repeated success. On the other side, we have those that are content with 7-4 seasons, losing the griz repeatedly; just as long as they are good kids and perform academically. To say it another way, just as long as it's good enough, then it's the best we can hope for.

Unfortunately, I think we've outgrown those expectations and Ash's firing was culmination of those expectations.

It's probably best to not try to paraphrase other people's arguments, as that never seems to work out well. We can all see people's actual arguments, which are always a far better representation of what they think than when somebody who disagrees with them tries to recast their words in order to dismiss them.

For instance, I'm sure nobody is "content" to lose to the Griz repeatedly ... I'm pretty sure nobody here would ever make that argument.

Not this.

I'm not so much summarizing arguments as I'm summarizing -at a high level- the two camps about Ash and expectations. An observation, if you will. We are still allowed to make those here, right?

Yep, I didn't stop you from making it -- just pointed out that you were being a little self-serving in doing so as you were trying to make those on the "other side" sound foolish with your straw man argument.

Everybody here wants MSU to win lots and lots of games -- the more the better. Nobody here is content losing to the Griz. The only disagreement is the best way to reach that goal.

If you say so.

If it's ok for you to mischaracterize those of us defending Coach Ash as content to lose, you surely agree that winning at all costs is really the only standard for you? As long as the Cats best the Griz, nothing else really matters then? Do you see how ridiculous you sound?

Not entirely. It's merely an observation. And a general one at that.

For the record, I like Ash. He is a great coach and did wonderful things for our beloved program. With those great things came elevated expectations that were not met in recent years. And while I don't agree that firing was the right way to go -a public retirement would have been better, in my opinion- it was time for a change.

I also don't agree that winning at all costs is the answer. We've seen what that does to the program; it's not good. Let's not get it twisted.

[grizzh8r]

This thread illustrates the current divide in the Bobcat fan base, generally.

On one side, we have a set of serious fans expecting more now that the Cats have shown sustained and repeated success. On the other side, we have those that are content with 7-4 seasons, losing the griz repeatedly; just as long as they are good kids and perform academically. To say it another way, just as long as it's good enough, then it's the best we can hope for.

Unfortunately, I think we've outgrown those expectations and Ash's firing was culmination of those expectations.

It's probably best to not try to paraphrase other people's arguments, as that never seems to work out well. We can all see people's actual arguments, which are always a far better representation of what they think than when somebody who disagrees with them tries to recast their words in order to dismiss them.

For instance, I'm sure nobody is "content" to lose to the Griz repeatedly ... I'm pretty sure nobody here would ever make that argument.

Not this.

I'm not so much summarizing arguments as I'm summarizing -at a high level- the two camps about Ash and expectations. An observation, if you will. We are still allowed to make those here, right?

Yep, I didn't stop you from making it -- just pointed out that you were being a little self-serving in doing so as you were trying to make those on the "other side" sound foolish with your straw man argument.

Everybody here wants MSU to win lots and lots of games -- the more the better. Nobody here is content losing to the Griz. The only disagreement is the best way to reach that goal.

If you say so.

If it's ok for you to mischaracterize those of us defending Coach Ash as content to lose, you surely agree that winning at all costs is really the only standard for you? As long as the Cats best the Griz, nothing else really matters then? Do you see how ridiculous you sound?

Not entirely. It's merely an observation. And a general one at that.

For the record, I like Ash. He is a great coach and did wonderful things for our beloved program. With those great things came elevated expectations that were not met in recent years. And while I don't agree that firing was the right way to go -a public retirement would have been better, in my opinion- it was time for a change.

I also don't agree that winning at all costs is the answer. We've seen what that does to the program; it's not good. Let's not get it twisted.

Are you serious? Put yourself in the shoes of Ash. Would you simply throw up your arms after this season, saying "aww shucks, I'd better retire", or would you want to try to come back next season and do everything in your power to make the team better? For your sake, I sincerely hope you'd choose the latter.

You can call Ash many things, but quitter is not one of them. Him announcing a "public retirement" at the end of this season would have been an absolute farce (not to mention completely contrived and see-through) and even more of a slap in the face to an extremely good man than his firing was.

Understand that while I'm extremely disappointed in the way Fields handled this firing (as I was for both Kramer and Huse), I can understand why the move was made and am cautiously optimistic that MSU will find and hire an excellent candidate to lead our beloved Bobcat Football program.

[bobcat99]

I wanted to look up how Ash has done against teams with above a .500 record in his career here at MSU. I only used FCS teams, no FBS and no lower division schools.

17-27.

That was his record.

I don't think doing better will be that difficult, tbh.

[ilovethecats]

sometimes i feel that the title of this thread is exactly what is wrong with our program at times. it's why our friends to the west call us little brother. not that i care about that, but sometimes it seems that way. we're afraid. we don't have swagger. this goes for everyone. players, coaches, boosters, fans. it's a terrible mentality.

we have so much going for us in bozeman. we have pretty good facilities compared to everyone else. we have great tradition. we are part of the best rivalry in the country. we have a hell of a president. i have to believe it's a pretty good job for someone. why should we be afraid we're not going to get anyone good? i have more confidence than that. i happen to think there is a great coach out there dying to get this job. and why shouldn't he be?

look at the mentality in missoula. it doesn't matter who there coach is. it doesn't matter if their old coach moved up, got fired, or retired. they don't care if they hire an old guy or a young guy, a former griz or not, an fbs dropdown or a d2 legend. they assume and expect that whoever comes in is going to dominate. and usually, in comparison to the cats that's what they do. this season is a perfect example. 1st year d2 coach leads them to a win over the cats and a playoff birth. it's like they don't miss a beat.

i'm not suggesting that fan confidence and pep creates a winning football team. but i do believe there is something to that swagger. the unrealistic, we should always be the best, we're always going to beat the cats, even though we haven't won a title in 15 years we're gods gift to football, our stadium is the best in the nation, probably the world, our town is better, our women are better looking, and missoula is the best city on the planet. as annoying as it is they believe it. their community believes it. the coaches and players believe it. they have the success they do because even when they're far from the best, they think they're the best. i think we could take something away from that...

sure we could get someone worse. or we could get someone much better. we could get someone that wins us a national championship. someone that creates a dynasty. someone who beats the griz regularly and makes deep playoff runs. someone that takes this program to heights barely dreamed of. of course we could land a crap coach. but why worry about that? we'll have several very good candidates that want to be here. and we'll get one. and it'll be a dream job. and i for one am hoping this new person will take us to the next level.

[CelticCat]

Actually our friends to the west think we are a delusional fan see with unrealistic expectations without a system in place to sustain elite programs.

These are the same fans who've been blasting Ash for years saying he can't win the big games, he can't win in November. Now all of the sudden MSU is the bad guy for firing him. It's kind of perplexing.

[CelticCat]

This thread illustrates the current divide in the Bobcat fan base, generally.

On one side, we have a set of serious fans expecting more now that the Cats have shown sustained and repeated success. On the other side, we have those that are content with 7-4 seasons, losing the griz repeatedly; just as long as they are good kids and perform academically. To say it another way, just as long as it's good enough, then it's the best we can hope for.

Unfortunately, I think we've outgrown those expectations and Ash's firing was culmination of those expectations.

It's probably best to not try to paraphrase other people's arguments, as that never seems to work out well. We can all see people's actual arguments, which are always a far better representation of what they think than when somebody who disagrees with them tries to recast their words in order to dismiss them.

For instance, I'm sure nobody is "content" to lose to the Griz repeatedly ... I'm pretty sure nobody here would ever make that argument.

Not this.

I'm not so much summarizing arguments as I'm summarizing -at a high level- the two camps about Ash and expectations. An observation, if you will. We are still allowed to make those here, right?

Yep, I didn't stop you from making it -- just pointed out that you were being a little self-serving in doing so as you were trying to make those on the "other side" sound foolish with your straw man argument.

Everybody here wants MSU to win lots and lots of games -- the more the better. Nobody here is content losing to the Griz. The only disagreement is the best way to reach that goal.

If you say so.

Come on, it was very obvious in your post which side you fell in, you painted one side poorly. It was easy to surmise not having read your opinion previously on the subject, what your opinion was based on this one post.

[LongTimeCatFan]

sometimes i feel that the title of this thread is exactly what is wrong with our program at times. it's why our friends to the west call us little brother. not that i care about that, but sometimes it seems that way. we're afraid. we don't have swagger. this goes for everyone. players, coaches, boosters, fans. it's a terrible mentality.

we have so much going for us in bozeman. we have pretty good facilities compared to everyone else. we have great tradition. we are part of the best rivalry in the country. we have a hell of a president. i have to believe it's a pretty good job for someone. why should we be afraid we're not going to get anyone good? i have more confidence than that. i happen to think there is a great coach out there dying to get this job. and why shouldn't he be?

look at the mentality in missoula. it doesn't matter who there coach is. it doesn't matter if their old coach moved up, got fired, or retired. they don't care if they hire an old guy or a young guy, a former griz or not, an fbs dropdown or a d2 legend. they assume and expect that whoever comes in is going to dominate. and usually, in comparison to the cats that's what they do. this season is a perfect example. 1st year d2 coach leads them to a win over the cats and a playoff birth. it's like they don't miss a beat.

i'm not suggesting that fan confidence and pep creates a winning football team. but i do believe there is something to that swagger. the unrealistic, we should always be the best, we're always going to beat the cats, even though we haven't won a title in 15 years we're gods gift to football, our stadium is the best in the nation, probably the world, our town is better, our women are better looking, and missoula is the best city on the planet. as annoying as it is they believe it. their community believes it. the coaches and players believe it. they have the success they do because even when they're far from the best, they think they're the best. i think we could take something away from that...

sure we could get someone worse. or we could get someone much better. we could get someone that wins us a national championship. someone that creates a dynasty. someone who beats the griz regularly and makes deep playoff runs. someone that takes this program to heights barely dreamed of. of course we could land a crap coach. but why worry about that? we'll have several very good candidates that want to be here. and we'll get one. and it'll be a dream job. and i for one am hoping this new person will take us to the next level.

This all day.

We are(were) #4 in the nation in attendance. Great facilities. Great fan support. Great academics. Great location.

What about all of this means we should not be great at Football?

"Those who say they can and those who say they can't are both usually right."

We can and should be great. We can and will get a damn good football coach. BECAUSE WE ARE MONTANA STATE

[ilovethecats]

Actually our friends to the west think we are a delusional fan see with unrealistic expectations without a system in place to sustain elite programs.

These are the same fans who've been blasting Ash for years saying he can't win the big games, he can't win in November. Now all of the sudden MSU is the bad guy for firing him. It's kind of perplexing.

i agree. but that goes with what i'm saying. they honestly believe it's crazy for us to have high standards. they truly believe we'll never beat them so to fire a coach who couldn't beat them is wrong. many think it's ridiculous that we want a coach to be able to beat them and win in the playoffs. and i couldn't care less. they can think whatever they want. i happen to think there is a coach out there that can accomplish these goals whether they believe it or not.