Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?

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AlphaOAlum
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Re: Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?

Post by AlphaOAlum » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:33 am

PapaG wrote:
Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?
Probably because there were some disastrous hires (Solomonson), some over their head but got a lucky year hires (Arnold), some solid hires who just weren't great hires (Hysell and Kramer, for different reasons), and one very good, but not great hire (Ash).

Of all of them, Ash has been by far the best of the bunch. Hysell was barely over .500, and Kramer ended up under .500 by 3 games, even with the 0-11 year that wasn't his fault at all. Arnold caught lighting in a bottle in 1984 with a great defense and a QB who was the best pure passer that I've seen from an MSU QB since I started watching games in 1982.
I wish I could "like" a post without having to quote the whole thing. Nonetheless, thumbs up.



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Re: Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?

Post by AlphaOAlum » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:39 am

Triple C wrote:AlphaO... thanks for the insightful history lessons. There should be significantly more threads like this, sans certain comments.
I'm excellent at Trivial Pursuit :D If you're interested in more about the MSU campus, the nomination to the National Register of Historic Places is available as a downloadable word document at the link below. The history stuff starts on Section 8, page 48. Given my background in agriculture, I particularly enjoyed the discussion of how the presence of the MSU Extension Office in Bozeman makes Bozeman the capitol of rural Montana.
http://www.bozeman.net/Departments/Comm ... nt-Library



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Re: Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?

Post by AlphaOAlum » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:41 am

Reddevil66-MSU wrote:Don't forget to add hired and fired Sara Shaub for Women's Volleyball.
So he's fired 6 of the 8 coaches of "major" sports that he hired? My face is incredulous right now. Wow.



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Re: Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?

Post by catsfan_769273 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:48 am

Jobu wrote:Welcome back, Alpha0! We've missed you on here.

I recall seeing this post when you originally made it after Huse was let go. Like then, I think it is a fascinating question, but I certainly don't have any answers as to why it happens. As you know all too well, coaches know they're being hired to be fired. Just one of the many reasons I respect the men and women who coach at higher levels of competition, including your Dad.
The reason coaches are fired is because expectations change. When Kramer got hired the expectation was to have a winning season, he accomplished that and started the winning season streak. When ash was hired the expectation was the next level playoff berths and play off wins he accomplished that. This year the team regressed, broke the streak, and whether it is ashes fault or not is irrelevant they have built this program up from nothing to many times to be on the verge of doing things on a national scale to regress that far and heads must role it is a cutthroat business because of the money involved and I also believe that president cruzado wants to move up. And when you move up inconsistency and mediocrity cannot be tolerated. I also believe that because of what ash has done for Bobcat football he should at least be offered the ad job after fields is fired. I have not always been on ash's side, he or someone on the staff makes crucial coaching errors roughly once a game, (the roughing the punter in the cat griz game for example, punt block should not have been on we should have gone for the return), but what he has done for the program is undeniable.



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Re: Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?

Post by AlphaOAlum » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:09 am

catsfan_769273 wrote:
Jobu wrote:Welcome back, Alpha0! We've missed you on here.

I recall seeing this post when you originally made it after Huse was let go. Like then, I think it is a fascinating question, but I certainly don't have any answers as to why it happens. As you know all too well, coaches know they're being hired to be fired. Just one of the many reasons I respect the men and women who coach at higher levels of competition, including your Dad.
The reason coaches are fired is because expectations change. When Kramer got hired the expectation was to have a winning season, he accomplished that and started the winning season streak. When ash was hired the expectation was the next level playoff berths and play off wins he accomplished that. This year the team regressed, broke the streak, and whether it is ashes fault or not is irrelevant they have built this program up from nothing to many times to be on the verge of doing things on a national scale to regress that far and heads must role it is a cutthroat business because of the money involved and I also believe that president cruzado wants to move up. And when you move up inconsistency and mediocrity cannot be tolerated. I also believe that because of what ash has done for Bobcat football he should at least be offered the ad job after fields is fired. I have not always been on ash's side, he or someone on the staff makes crucial coaching errors roughly once a game, (the roughing the punter in the cat griz game for example, punt block should not have been on we should have gone for the return), but what he has done for the program is undeniable.
I agree with you. I actually think Ash would make a good AD. He's a dynamic speaker and I think would have success as a fund raiser.

Thought I had this morning: the relationship between a coach meeting or exceeding expectations, then raising the bar for expectations, then investment by the university and alumni in facilities, and an even higher bar for expectations.

Let me play this out:

Ash hired in 2007. End zone project 2011. Expectations now to host multiple playoff games, thus the need for lights.

Kramer hired in 2000. Expectations of winning season, beating UM and stretch goal of making the playoffs.

Hysell was hired in 1992. Improvements to Reno H. Sales in 1997 make it Bobcat Stadium. Expectations elevated to winning seasons and beating UM. As an aside, I remember listening to that heartbreaking 'Cat-Griz game on the radio as a kid. Brutal.

Reno H. Sales built 1973 (which is an interesting story in itself). Holland, Lubick, Graber, Arnold, Solmonson coached in the venue. I'm not sure if there were improvements to the football field itself, but there were likely improvements to other facilities like coaching offices and training facilities during this time.

Gatton Field built south of Romney Gym in 1928. Home to championship teams in 1956 (Storti) and 1964 (Sweeney). I'm not certain when the lights were added.

The MSU Library hosts a Flickr stream of historic photos of campus that I'm obsessed with: https://www.flickr.com/photos/msulibrary/albums/



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Re: Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?

Post by 76er » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:00 am

My numbers may not be 100% correct, but:

I think MSU was 13-14 in last 27 games and 11-14 in last 25 games against D1 teams.
The last time MSU beat a playoff team may have been on Oct. 5 2013 (NAU 36-7).
Of MSU's 7 D-1 wins in 2014, the losers had a combined record of 27-45.
Of MSU's 4 D-1 wins in 2015 the losers had a combined record of 10-36.



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Re: Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?

Post by John K » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:10 am

PapaG wrote:
Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?
Probably because there were some disastrous hires (Solomonson), some over their head but got a lucky year hires (Arnold), some solid hires who just weren't great hires (Hysell and Kramer, for different reasons), and one very good, but not great hire (Ash).

Of all of them, Ash has been by far the best of the bunch. Hysell was barely over .500, and Kramer ended up under .500 by 3 games, even with the 0-11 year that wasn't his fault at all. Arnold caught lighting in a bottle in 1984 with a great defense and a QB who was the best pure passer that I've seen from an MSU QB since I started watching games in 1982.
Arnold has always been a real head scratcher for me. It almost seems inconceivable that a guy could go 12-2 and win a NC one year, but be 6-27 in his other three years. I bet you won't find too many head coaches ever, in the history of college football, with a record like that.



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Re: Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?

Post by Bobcat4Ever » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:46 pm

Sports Illustrated even published an article on the abrupt downs and ups and downs surrounding that 1984 national championship season. Somewhere, around here, I still have it tucked away. It was a fun read, including the offensive line eating a worm or two from the field -- no joke.



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Re: Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?

Post by Bobcat4Ever » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:53 pm

Oh, the amazement of the Internet! Sorry, it was bugs. And for a fun read on MSU football history, when we all need a laugh, here is the Sports Illustrated article from September 15, 1986.

http://www.si.com/vault/1986/09/15/1139 ... e-football



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Re: Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?

Post by PapaG » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:00 pm

John K wrote:
Arnold has always been a real head scratcher for me. It almost seems inconceivable that a guy could go 12-2 and win a NC one year, but be 6-27 in his other three years. I bet you won't find too many head coaches ever, in the history of college football, with a record like that.
Didn't Kelly Bradley get injured early in the 1985 season? I was only 13, so I don't remember much about it.


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Re: Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?

Post by seataccat » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:38 pm

John K wrote:
PapaG wrote:
Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?
Probably because there were some disastrous hires (Solomonson), some over their head but got a lucky year hires (Arnold), some solid hires who just weren't great hires (Hysell and Kramer, for different reasons), and one very good, but not great hire (Ash).

Of all of them, Ash has been by far the best of the bunch. Hysell was barely over .500, and Kramer ended up under .500 by 3 games, even with the 0-11 year that wasn't his fault at all. Arnold caught lighting in a bottle in 1984 with a great defense and a QB who was the best pure passer that I've seen from an MSU QB since I started watching games in 1982.
Arnold has always been a real head scratcher for me. It almost seems inconceivable that a guy could go 12-2 and win a NC one year, but be 6-27 in his other three years. I bet you won't find too many head coaches ever, in the history of college football, with a record like that.
Well, not many coaches get a strength and conditioning coach like Rocky Gullickson to work with their players for two years. He was probably more responsible for that NC than Arnold was.

Whomever fired Lubick was a real genius eh !!!! :roll:


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Re: Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?

Post by PapaG » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:49 pm

seataccat wrote:
Whomever fired Lubick was a real genius eh !!!! :roll:
Lubick's seasons as MSU, from first to last.

1978 8-2 overall/4-2 Big Sky
1979 6-4/6-1
1980 4-6/3-4
1981 3-7/1-6

Coming off a national title in 1976, Lubick's last two years were awful, and I can imagine how much pressure the alumni association was putting on the AD for a winner again.

It took Lubick 12 more years to get another HC job, and that was after some years of learning at The U under Dennis Erickson.


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Re: Why have we fired most football coaches since 1971?

Post by Bobcat4Ever » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:49 am

PapaG wrote:
Didn't Kelly Bradley get injured early in the 1985 season? I was only 13, so I don't remember much about it.
Yes. According to the Sports Illustrated article above he dislocated his elbow at Northern Arizona and was done for that year. Your memory is good.



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