Truth is...

[catsrback76]

1963. Jim Sweeney's Bobcats won the second ever Big Sky title the next year.

Thanks Colter!!!

Was kind of hoping BBG would answer that one.

Soooooo BBG.
Are you discounting the BigSky wins from 63 forward and the 76 and 84 titles??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

84 was a Division I title, so it's clearly apples to apples. I think it's nearly impossible to argue that the team was better off under Dave Arnold, though. He won one natty and coached three other teams that won an average of two games apiece. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't enjoy Bobcat football very much if they won a championship every four years but spent the other three playing like Idaho State under Zamberlin.

I also acknowledged that you could make an argument that Sonny Holland was better than Ash, but I don't think comparing Division II results to Division I results is apples to apples. As for Sweeney, I don't think I'd argue that he was better than Holland anyway. Even so, then you're going back 40 or 50 years. If Ash is the best the team has had in 40-50 years, it seems logical to be patient with that.

I would argue however that the competition in the 1976 Big Sky Conference was as good or better than this watered down FCS version. Were we not playing Idaho, Nevada and Boise in 1976?

I am so happy to see somebody else understands how watered down 1-AA (refuse to call a brainchild of Fullerton by his preferred moniker) became. Approximately half the non Power 5 teams and many of the Division II teams were in the small college division. That 76 team was incredible as was the 78 team. I think the 78 team started out 8-0.

I've been saying this for years. That 76 team's Div II NC was probably the most competitive that any Montana team has ever been. The competition they faced was every bit as good as the current FCS.

@ UND W 18-14
NDSU W 34-7
@ Fresno L 24-10
Boise W 24-20
@ Weber W 44-0 (Weber was sooo bad back then)
ISU W 28-7
Idaho W 29-14
@ UM W 21-12
NAU W 33-0
@ Hawaii W 28-7

Playoffs

UNH W 17-16
@ NDSU W 10-3
Akron W 24-13

That was a heck of a run with the lone loss coming to D1 Fresno! I wish our schedule looked like that today, with Idaho, UND, and NDSU in the Big Sky! I wouldn't even mind playing Boise again even though we would probably get whooped in most years.

Wish some of the older folks would help out a little...what game did Dennehey start the second half? I'm thinking Fresno.

I don't remember exactly but that does sound right. I do remember watching Dennehey take off on a QB sweep along the side lines and take on about 3 DB's head-on. Man he ran hard and backed down from no one. There was no "sliding" for him!

[Cat Grad]

1963. Jim Sweeney's Bobcats won the second ever Big Sky title the next year.

Thanks Colter!!!

Was kind of hoping BBG would answer that one.

Soooooo BBG.
Are you discounting the BigSky wins from 63 forward and the 76 and 84 titles??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

84 was a Division I title, so it's clearly apples to apples. I think it's nearly impossible to argue that the team was better off under Dave Arnold, though. He won one natty and coached three other teams that won an average of two games apiece. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't enjoy Bobcat football very much if they won a championship every four years but spent the other three playing like Idaho State under Zamberlin.

I also acknowledged that you could make an argument that Sonny Holland was better than Ash, but I don't think comparing Division II results to Division I results is apples to apples. As for Sweeney, I don't think I'd argue that he was better than Holland anyway. Even so, then you're going back 40 or 50 years. If Ash is the best the team has had in 40-50 years, it seems logical to be patient with that.

I would argue however that the competition in the 1976 Big Sky Conference was as good or better than this watered down FCS version. Were we not playing Idaho, Nevada and Boise in 1976?

I am so happy to see somebody else understands how watered down 1-AA (refuse to call a brainchild of Fullerton by his preferred moniker) became. Approximately half the non Power 5 teams and many of the Division II teams were in the small college division. That 76 team was incredible as was the 78 team. I think the 78 team started out 8-0.

I've been saying this for years. That 76 team's Div II NC was probably the most competitive that any Montana team has ever been. The competition they faced was every bit as good as the current FCS.

@ UND W 18-14
NDSU W 34-7
@ Fresno L 24-10
Boise W 24-20
@ Weber W 44-0 (Weber was sooo bad back then)
ISU W 28-7
Idaho W 29-14
@ UM W 21-12
NAU W 33-0
@ Hawaii W 28-7

Playoffs

UNH W 17-16
@ NDSU W 10-3
Akron W 24-13

That was a heck of a run with the lone loss coming to D1 Fresno! I wish our schedule looked like that today, with Idaho, UND, and NDSU in the Big Sky! I wouldn't even mind playing Boise again even though we would probably get whooped in most years.

Wish some of the older folks would help out a little...what game did Dennehey start the second half? I'm thinking Fresno.

I don't remember exactly but that does sound right. I do remember watching Dennehey take off on a QB sweep along the side lines and take on about 3 DB's head-on. Man he ran hard and backed down from no one. There was no "sliding" for him!

My favorite aspect of this team was they were all good guys. Their Thursday night social functions were well organized as well as entertaining. I missed these guys when they left and I haven't been able to say that about all who have come and gone through the program. The entire athletic department was much more personable, I think that's the right term. Used to be a lot of fun listening to them joke and kid around about their basketball teams in high school like the best defense against Butte Central was to just let Don Ueland shoot and crash the boards.

[catatac]

Truth is we've plateau at an 8 win season. We don't win big games. Nothing I'm seeing says it will change any time soon. Two of the most dynamic and energetic coaches we have are Kramer hold overs and why should they stay around?...This post makes me sad. However, I still hope for the best. Perhaps, we can make sound defensive changes that will allow us to compete.

One question... If leadership at the top is not in congruence, what should we expect from our players?

Ummm, care to try again?

2010: 9-3 (9 regular season wins)
2011: 10-3 (9 regular season wins)
2012: 11-2 (10 regular season wins)

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Ya, but don't let facts screw up a good downer session! Thanks for posting that. We all know the Friggin Cat\Griz game this year completely sucked, and was a kick in the pills. But it was one game. I know for a fact that one game has turned a lot of posters sour about this team and this program but hopefully people can step back and apreciate the success we've had here. You posted FACTS that disprove the claim that we've topped out at 8 win seasons. I and others have posted the records for November games in the past 5 or 6 years and proved that the infamous "November Meltdown" doesn't exist. I've posted stats from teams a few years back where we led teh Big Sky in defense to disprove the posts that "Our D under ash sucks and has always sucked."

[wapiti]

http://youtu.be/8Gv0H-vPoDc

[youtube][/youtube]

[CatRowdy]

Ya, but don't let facts screw up a good downer session! Thanks for posting that. We all know the Friggin Cat\Griz game this year completely sucked, and was a kick in the pills. But it was one game. I know for a fact that one game has turned a lot of posters sour about this team and this program but hopefully people can step back and apreciate the success we've had here. You posted FACTS that disprove the claim that we've topped out at 8 win seasons. I and others have posted the records for November games in the past 5 or 6 years and proved that the infamous "November Meltdown" doesn't exist. I've posted stats from teams a few years back where we led teh Big Sky in defense to disprove the posts that "Our D under ash sucks and has always sucked."

You're absolutely right, it was one game in the 2014 season. It's one game every season. The difference for me and I believe a lot of fans is it's the most important game. For many of us residing in the state, we hear about it all year long. So it's the only game that matters for 12 months out of the year, it doesn't go away until the next year. Ash's comment that getting to the playoffs takes the bad taste out of our mouth losing the CAT/griz game couldn't be more misguided.

That said I can certainly understand you can't win them all; so if we go to the record, Ash is 2 and 6 against the griz, not anything to brag about and certainly it would appear he has difficulty coaching against them.

Now does that mean he needs to be fired? I don't have enough information to answer that intelligently, but I do think he needs to realign his priorities. He has said many times he looks at the CAT/griz as one game, and I believe him. He has said since the day he came here the wins and losses go behind his name, so I believe he looks to every game the same. I suggest he needs to look to the CAT/griz with more priority. And if he coaches to beat the Griz it will trickle down to the whole season and likely the playoffs.

[catatac]

Ya, but don't let facts screw up a good downer session! Thanks for posting that. We all know the Friggin Cat\Griz game this year completely sucked, and was a kick in the pills. But it was one game. I know for a fact that one game has turned a lot of posters sour about this team and this program but hopefully people can step back and apreciate the success we've had here. You posted FACTS that disprove the claim that we've topped out at 8 win seasons. I and others have posted the records for November games in the past 5 or 6 years and proved that the infamous "November Meltdown" doesn't exist. I've posted stats from teams a few years back where we led teh Big Sky in defense to disprove the posts that "Our D under ash sucks and has always sucked."

You're absolutely right, it was one game in the 2014 season. It's one game every season. The difference for me and I believe a lot of fans is it's the most important game. For many of us residing in the state, we hear about it all year long. So it's the only game that matters for 12 months out of the year, it doesn't go away until the next year. Ash's comment that getting to the playoffs takes the bad taste out of our mouth losing the CAT/griz game couldn't be more misguided.

That said I can certainly understand you can't win them all; so if we go to the record, Ash is 2 and 6 against the griz, not anything to brag about and certainly it would appear he has difficulty coaching against them.

Now does that mean he needs to be fired? I don't have enough information to answer that intelligently, but I do think he needs to realign his priorities. He has said many times he looks at the CAT/griz as one game, and I believe him. He has said since the day he came here the wins and losses go behind his name, so I believe he looks to every game the same. I suggest he needs to look to the CAT/griz with more priority. And if he coaches to beat the Griz it will trickle down to the whole season and likely the playoffs.

I respect your opinion, but we probably have to disagree about Cat\Griz being the most important game of the year, now that we regularly make the playoffs. Trust me, I'm in the same boat. I am so sick and tired of hearing about the beat down from Griz nation (whether from friends or just random idiots across the state talking smack). I don't know how many of you have had conversations with Ash throughout the years, but trust me... he gets it. He may not have fully understood the rivalry until a year or two in, but he fully understands the magnitude of it now. Ash's goal for coming here, which has remained unchanged, is to create a winning culture and create a program that competes for and ultimately wins a national championship. The ONLY way to do that is to treat every single game, every week, as if it's the most important game they're ever played. Thus, they treat each game, each week the same, and prepare accordingly, This creates consistency. I totally feel your pain, but planning an entire season around trying to win one game, unless it's the national championship, is setting us up for failure. As for the "taste in our mouths" comment, he obviously needed to get his team to forget that chit show that went on in Missoula and get them focused on our playoff game.

[VimSince03]

Well if that is the case then I suggest Brian takes these facts to the proper channels and sees what happens. Along with Jon Ellis and Christian Williams. Like I'm not even being sarcastic here, he should do this. If he believes Ash committed a violation of NCAA rules, he should go and have his voice heard. He has every right to do so.

[VimSince03]

I mean who are we to say that this stuff didn't happen. Sure the post was filled with grammatical and structural errors everywhere. However, he made it to his senior year, was a big part of this season before his injury, and we knew there was some tension between him and Ash, especially after the Arkansas State game where Ash believed Brian didn't perform up to standard. All I'm saying is that if it really was Brian, the post should be viewed a bit differently coming from a four year contributor/starter instead of a scout team player who couldn't cut it. This is all coming back to coaching and being held accountable. I think Ash has strayed away from holding himself accountable at all times these last couple of years. The Denarius situation was not pretty. It was real folks. I'm all about moving on and learning from past mistakes but Ash bashing fraternities (who make up a very strong contingent of alumni at MSU, especially donors and fans of the football program) was a bit childish if you ask me, let alone not very smart.

[SonomaCat]

I think what we really need is a few more people posting anonymously on a message board complaining about a lack of "accountability" on the part of others.

Incidentally, I suspect Coach Ash is subject to far more accountability than anyone else that has ever posted on this board. The nature of a college football coach isn't one of a long term guaranteed contract. He only has a job as long as he meets the very high expectations of the donors (no matter how warped or misguided those expectations may be). That's a pretty extreme form of accountability.

On a separate topic, speaking to the frat thing (we don't know exactly what was said, so we are relying on people's interpretations and characterizations of what he said, which are generally not one and the same), but I would bet that most college sports fans would probably agree that a player shouldn't be spending a lot of time on fraternity activities and should instead be focusing their time on the team and spending time with their teammates (see Coach Strong's rules at Texas which so many people couldn't praise enough, which essentially preclude players from being in fraternities). I don't happen to agree with that mindset (as I think all college students, including student-athletes, should be encouraged to get the most out of their time in college by experiencing the most diversity they can), but that approach is a really common one in the college sports world. I'm sure if Ash does feel that players shouldn't be in fraternities, he's in the majority of coaches on that topic.

Here's the rule at Texas that I was speaking about:

"The team will all live together, eat together, suffer together, and hang out together."

I think it's a pretty messed up philosophy, but many in and around college sports just eat that kind of thing up. The idea that football players should have interests and relationships outside of football (or that football shouldn't be a player's number 1 priority 24/7/365) is jarring to some people.

[VimSince03]

I think what we really need is a few more people posting anonymously on a message board complaining about a lack of "accountability" on the part of others.

...touche.

[LongTimeCatFan]

On a separate topic, speaking to the frat thing (we don't know exactly what was said, so we are relying on people's interpretations and characterizations of what he said, which are generally not one and the same),

I thought this was said during an after season interview which would be on record somewhere.

[SonomaCat]

On a separate topic, speaking to the frat thing (we don't know exactly what was said, so we are relying on people's interpretations and characterizations of what he said, which are generally not one and the same),

I thought this was said during an after season interview which would be on record somewhere.

I must have missed it -- I always assumed this was something from a private discussion that people had leaked out. Please do let me know if you find any published statements from Ash about the fraternity thing.

[Cat Grad]

[I think it's a pretty messed up philosophy, but many in and around college sports just eat that kind of thing up. The idea that football players should have interests and relationships outside of football (or that football shouldn't be a player's number 1 priority 24/7/365) is jarring to some people.*]

I've long held the belief that football is as close to a real team and close knit military unit as one could possibly encounter in the U.S. I also can fully understand and appreciate those football coaches and schools that place the team over and above all other aspects of college life. I never played the game beyond high school and to watch the teams go through life and their lifelong affiliation(s) with each other is still amazing to me. Simply put, I understand why the coaching fraternity is so protective of their own and very rarely trust administrators and many do not hide their contempt for them, especially if they do in fact come from an individuals sport be it track, swimming, etc.

Various schools ensure their Athletic Directors are former football players for a reason. Most of us have a hard time understanding why a school would pay somebody like Saban over 7 million or offer somebody like Harbaugh over 8 million "just to coach" a football team.

[VimSince03]

Just to throw a little factoid out there, Bobby Bowden (a fraternity man himself at Florida State and a hall of fame football coach) used to require his football players join other activities/organizations outside of football, especially fraternities. Here is a short list of football players who are alumni of the greek life:

Wes Welker, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, John Elway, Emmitt Smith, Jerry Rice, Phil Simms, Dan Marino, Tony Romo, John Lynch, the list goes on.

Regardless of how others feel about the reputation of the greek community on MSU's campus, these fraternity kids are trying to recruit athletes not to corrupt them but to improve their overall fraternity because they know the quality of person that Ash brings to MSU. So as an alumni of the greek community on MSU's campus, I was shocked when I read Ash did not want his players joining fraternities. The fraternity system was trying to use the football program as a recruiting tool to improve the fraternity system on campus as a whole. It was a bummer because there was a chance to establish a good, on-going recruiting relationship between Ash and the greek system. And again, these kids are supporting the football program every Saturday just like every other student on campus. I believe it was the Pike house who got Denarius and I knew that was a huge deal for them because they got a great leader, person, student, the whole package. It was like getting a 5-star recruit. When I attended college back in the early 2000s, the Pike house was the equivalent of low-level FBS school with terrible grades. My alumni friends from that fraternity now say that their improved recruiting over the last 5 years has brought the house to new heights and Denarius was a big part of that. Saying Denarius joining a fraternity played a part in a lost season did not sit well with me and did not sit well with the greek system. I know it is hard to see the other side on this issue for some people who do not approve of the greek system at MSU, but it comes down to an organization just trying to improve their personnel.

Now on the other hand, I completely understand where Ash would be coming from if his players joined a fraternity and the player proceeded to miss football related activities and not give forth his best efforts because of fraternity responsibilities taking over. I can see why the "one-family" concept is used by college coaches across the nation. But I just believe that it comes down to the student athlete, whether or not he can handle it. Put the responsibility in his hands.

[SonomaCat]

Just to throw a little factoid out there, Bobby Bowden (a fraternity man himself at Florida State and a hall of fame football coach) used to require his football players join other activities/organizations outside of football, especially fraternities. Here is a short list of football players who are alumni of the greek life:

Wes Welker, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, John Elway, Emmitt Smith, Jerry Rice, Phil Simms, Dan Marino, Tony Romo, John Lynch, the list goes on.

Regardless of how others feel about the reputation of the greek community on MSU's campus, these fraternity kids are trying to recruit athletes not to corrupt them but to improve their overall fraternity because they know the quality of person that Ash brings to MSU. So as an alumni of the greek community on MSU's campus, I was shocked when I read Ash did not want his players joining fraternities. The fraternity system was trying to use the football program as a recruiting tool to improve the fraternity system on campus as a whole. It was a bummer because there was a chance to establish a good, on-going recruiting relationship between Ash and the greek system. And again, these kids are supporting the football program every Saturday just like every other student on campus. I believe it was the Pike house who got Denarius and I knew that was a huge deal for them because they got a great leader, person, student, the whole package. It was like getting a 5-star recruit. When I attended college back in the early 2000s, the Pike house was the equivalent of low-level FBS school with terrible grades. My alumni friends from that fraternity now say that their improved recruiting over the last 5 years has brought the house to new heights and Denarius was a big part of that. Saying Denarius joining a fraternity played a part in a lost season did not sit well with me and did not sit well with the greek system. I know it is hard to see the other side on this issue for some people who do not approve of the greek system at MSU, but it comes down to an organization just trying to improve their personnel.

Now on the other hand, I completely understand where Ash would be coming from if his players joined a fraternity and the player proceeded to miss football related activities and not give forth his best efforts because of fraternity responsibilities taking over. I can see why the "one-family" concept is used by college coaches across the nation. But I just believe that it comes down to the student athlete, whether or not he can handle it. Put the responsibility in his hands.

I agree with you on the personal responsibility (and personal choice) part ... totally. But college football coaches, as a whole, don't tend to see things our way:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-1 ... greek.html

The numbers in the NFL are pretty stark:

While Greek life camaraderie appeals to athletes, coaches with power over their playing time and scholarships often frown on it. Just three of 254 players chosen in the National Football League draft last May were fraternity members, according to the North-American Interfraternity Conference in Indianapolis. Its annual census of fraternity alumni in the NFL shows a 19 percent decline since 2003, to 52 players.

I don't recall there ever being a football player in the Greek system at MSU when I was in school. My understanding at the time was that Hysell frowned on it.

And yeah, I'm sure it was a recruiting boon to PKA to get DM to join ... it's not a coincidence that they made him recruitment chair.

[tampa_griz]

I don't recall there ever being a football player in the Greek system at MSU when I was in school. My understanding at the time was that Hysell frowned on it.

That's how I remembered it at Montana. Kind of a "school and football, nothing else" mentality. No distractions.

[Cat Grad]

Just to throw a little factoid out there, Bobby Bowden (a fraternity man himself at Florida State and a hall of fame football coach) used to require his football players join other activities/organizations outside of football, especially fraternities. Here is a short list of football players who are alumni of the greek life:

Wes Welker, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, John Elway, Emmitt Smith, Jerry Rice, Phil Simms, Dan Marino, Tony Romo, John Lynch, the list goes on.

Regardless of how others feel about the reputation of the greek community on MSU's campus, these fraternity kids are trying to recruit athletes not to corrupt them but to improve their overall fraternity because they know the quality of person that Ash brings to MSU. So as an alumni of the greek community on MSU's campus, I was shocked when I read Ash did not want his players joining fraternities. The fraternity system was trying to use the football program as a recruiting tool to improve the fraternity system on campus as a whole. It was a bummer because there was a chance to establish a good, on-going recruiting relationship between Ash and the greek system. And again, these kids are supporting the football program every Saturday just like every other student on campus. I believe it was the Pike house who got Denarius and I knew that was a huge deal for them because they got a great leader, person, student, the whole package. It was like getting a 5-star recruit. When I attended college back in the early 2000s, the Pike house was the equivalent of low-level FBS school with terrible grades. My alumni friends from that fraternity now say that their improved recruiting over the last 5 years has brought the house to new heights and Denarius was a big part of that. Saying Denarius joining a fraternity played a part in a lost season did not sit well with me and did not sit well with the greek system. I know it is hard to see the other side on this issue for some people who do not approve of the greek system at MSU, but it comes down to an organization just trying to improve their personnel.

Now on the other hand, I completely understand where Ash would be coming from if his players joined a fraternity and the player proceeded to miss football related activities and not give forth his best efforts because of fraternity responsibilities taking over. I can see why the "one-family" concept is used by college coaches across the nation. But I just believe that it comes down to the student athlete, whether or not he can handle it. Put the responsibility in his hands.

I agree with you on the personal responsibility (and personal choice) part ... totally. But college football coaches, as a whole, don't tend to see things our way:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-1 ... greek.html

The numbers in the NFL are pretty stark:

While Greek life camaraderie appeals to athletes, coaches with power over their playing time and scholarships often frown on it. Just three of 254 players chosen in the National Football League draft last May were fraternity members, according to the North-American Interfraternity Conference in Indianapolis. Its annual census of fraternity alumni in the NFL shows a 19 percent decline since 2003, to 52 players.

I don't recall there ever being a football player in the Greek system at MSU when I was in school. My understanding at the time was that Hysell frowned on it.

I beg to differ with you! Jim Harbaugh and Mike Leach are two of the easiest, mainstream individual in this country. Everybody understands exactly what they convey to their players...

[VimSince03]

Just to throw a little factoid out there, Bobby Bowden (a fraternity man himself at Florida State and a hall of fame football coach) used to require his football players join other activities/organizations outside of football, especially fraternities. Here is a short list of football players who are alumni of the greek life:

Wes Welker, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, John Elway, Emmitt Smith, Jerry Rice, Phil Simms, Dan Marino, Tony Romo, John Lynch, the list goes on.

Regardless of how others feel about the reputation of the greek community on MSU's campus, these fraternity kids are trying to recruit athletes not to corrupt them but to improve their overall fraternity because they know the quality of person that Ash brings to MSU. So as an alumni of the greek community on MSU's campus, I was shocked when I read Ash did not want his players joining fraternities. The fraternity system was trying to use the football program as a recruiting tool to improve the fraternity system on campus as a whole. It was a bummer because there was a chance to establish a good, on-going recruiting relationship between Ash and the greek system. And again, these kids are supporting the football program every Saturday just like every other student on campus. I believe it was the Pike house who got Denarius and I knew that was a huge deal for them because they got a great leader, person, student, the whole package. It was like getting a 5-star recruit. When I attended college back in the early 2000s, the Pike house was the equivalent of low-level FBS school with terrible grades. My alumni friends from that fraternity now say that their improved recruiting over the last 5 years has brought the house to new heights and Denarius was a big part of that. Saying Denarius joining a fraternity played a part in a lost season did not sit well with me and did not sit well with the greek system. I know it is hard to see the other side on this issue for some people who do not approve of the greek system at MSU, but it comes down to an organization just trying to improve their personnel.

Now on the other hand, I completely understand where Ash would be coming from if his players joined a fraternity and the player proceeded to miss football related activities and not give forth his best efforts because of fraternity responsibilities taking over. I can see why the "one-family" concept is used by college coaches across the nation. But I just believe that it comes down to the student athlete, whether or not he can handle it. Put the responsibility in his hands.

I agree with you on the personal responsibility (and personal choice) part ... totally. But college football coaches, as a whole, don't tend to see things our way:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-1 ... greek.html

The numbers in the NFL are pretty stark:

While Greek life camaraderie appeals to athletes, coaches with power over their playing time and scholarships often frown on it. Just three of 254 players chosen in the National Football League draft last May were fraternity members, according to the North-American Interfraternity Conference in Indianapolis. Its annual census of fraternity alumni in the NFL shows a 19 percent decline since 2003, to 52 players.

I don't recall there ever being a football player in the Greek system at MSU when I was in school. My understanding at the time was that Hysell frowned on it.

And you know what, I wouldn't blame Hysell one bit. The school's rules on the fraternity system as a whole have become incredibly strict over the last 10 years. I actually predict that they will go dry (alcohol-free) within the next 5 years just because of the liability issues involved. But yeah back in Hysell's 1990's years, the frat system was a free for all for about anything and this was why I was surprised by Ash and his comments because of how strict the rules have gotten with fraternities. The liability issues have gone way down.

Denarius broke down a huge barrier when he joined a fraternity because like you said BAC, there wasn't a football player in the Greek system for a long, long time prior to him.

[Hawks86]

I don't think DM joining a frat was the problem. It was what that decision and its effects had in the locker room. If it was a general rule then DM wouldn't have joined and current members of the team wouldn't have either.

[VimSince03]

I don't think DM joining a frat was the problem. It was what that decision and its effects had in the locker room. If it was a general rule then DM wouldn't have joined and current members of the team wouldn't have either.

Good point. The locker room is such a big deal in college football, that if another player had a problem with it, then it would spiral into other problems. I just believe that the major issues of that season came down to Denarius being hurt and not adjusting to Cramsey's offense.