Tribune Cat-Griz game story

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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by allcat » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:07 pm

Colter_Nuanez wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:Mr. Nuanez, in your own convoluted way with this list of credentials, you've only solidified the MSU faithful's perception of not only media bias but a rather blatant disregard of MSU. Where would one naturally assume that list of credentialed media types would place a lowly Land Grant Institution on the academic ladder?

Not arguing, just asking you to detach yourself from yourself, take a step back and ask for an objective summary in your own mind. Your predecessor at the comical was an elite "Colorado" graduate, correct? What broad stereotypes did he paint about the community and team members at MSU? Many times not very subtly either. I believe he even compared his junior high exploits to our football team in one of his columns--a couple of years after MSU extended their winning streak over his school.
I'm confused? You want more Montana State graduates working in newspapers? Montana State doesn't have a journalism program or anything really close to it so that's not going to happen.

In terms of your "lowly Land Grant institution", I feel Montana State is the premier university in the state and one of the best universities in the West. If I had a son or daughter and they wanted to be a journalist or a forester, I'd send them to Missoula. If I wanted them to be pretty much anything else, I'd send them to MSU. Montana State has a more stringent academic curriculum by and large because of a larger emphasis on math and science. The degrees you can acquire at Montana State lead to much more lucrative and prestigious jobs. Spending time on campus and living in the community for four years has shown me it's a much more academically oriented place through and through. I didn't have a single friend that took his studies seriously with the exception of the kids in J-school when I was in school in Missoula. Almost every kid I've met or worked alongside at my various spare jobs have been model students who prioritize and take pride in the grades they get.

One of the final classes you have to take at the UM J-School, one of the top 10 journalism schools in the county for six years running, is a class all about the existence of bias within the fabric of the consumption of media. The main thesis of the class is that almost 100 percent of those that consume media have a pre-conceived notion of the topic they are consuming before consuming the media and that exact notion is enforced after said consumer consumes. In other words, if you are a Bobcat fan and you read Mark's story, there was a nearly 100 percent chance you'd feel it slighted Montana State. Whereas the preconceived notion of anyone with Griz fandom would be something on the opposite side of the spectrum. It's just human nature.

My question for you is where is the blatant disregard for Montana State you speak of?
Wow, is that article tilted towards UM. Now your bias is really showing. ](*,) :D


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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by Cat Grad » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:21 pm

[quoteMy question for you is where is the blatant disregard for Montana State you speak of?[/quote]

Knee jerk, rhetorical question. MSU graduates by and large realize upon entering their chosen field how well they are prepared. None of us have anything to apologize after 30-40 years in the careers we chose to pursue by the training we received at MSU. We have in fact encountered a few misguided and very misinformed individuals who chose to not only marginalize and minimize our training from THEE Montana State University, for that is what RichK brought up when he opened this thread, we do in fact sit and discuss the very things I asked you to ponder.

As far as impartial reporting? Announcing? I liked Harry Carey. I loved Vin Scully. Mike Ryko. They wore their love for their home town teams on their sleeves and it's apparent we don't have anyone willing to speak of all the positive attributes of MSU. We only seem go get those who simply "Want to report."



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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by Griznationalist » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:23 pm

I still think there's either mommy/daddy issues going on or else true believers who think aliens landed at Roswell.



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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by BelgradeBobcat » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:29 pm

Colter_Nuanez wrote:
76er wrote:Scott Mansch formerly worked the Bobcat beat for the Trib and this year (perhaps with Sports Editor duties) has started to hand off Bobcat coverage. Colter even covered one game for the Trib. At any rate, this new Robertson guy is not our guy.
I actually covered about half of the games this season for the Tribune and I wrote two features stories as well.
BelgradeBobcat wrote:
griz5700 wrote:Maybe the problem is in Bozeman...... Ever consider that?
If the sentence read: " "The Montana State University football team wore the Treasure State's outline on its helmets as if to say only one team represents Montana on the football field." don't you think there'd be outrage expressed by some griz fans?

I don't expect griz fans to understand. You've had the state's collective media largely in your corner for all time. But a lot of Bobcat fans have a heightened awareness of the issue. Sometimes maybe we overreact, but the bias is very very real and something we will always have to work against.
The writer implied that's how the Griz felt. The lede had nothing to do with Mark's opinion. The lede was clever and, to be frank, true. The Griz did feel like they were the only team worthy of representing the state entering the game and leaving the field. They said so in not so many words after the game. The words "utter domination" were uttered no less than twice by all six UM people at the post-game press conference, almost all of the comments unsolicited by any reporter. I can't speak for Mark, but as a voracious reader of sportswriting, I believe that was the only point he was trying to convey.

And to whoever asked if I knew Mark, yes I've just met him a couple of times at Bobcat games and I sat next to him on Saturday. He took over for Jesse Geleysne, who covered the Griz for a few years after George Geise left. That's almost the job I took before I landed at the Chronicle. I was very impressed with his grasp of FCS football and the Big Sky Conference for a guy who just moved to Montana 3 months ago. Mark is young, enthusiastic and a good writer. Scott Mansch is a friend of mine and I know Scott really appreciates Mark's good attitude and strong work ethic.

The vast majority of the media in Montana is not from UM as many of you assume. There is not a single UM grad that works in television in Bozeman. No one at the Chronicle is from UM.
ABC/Fox Rob Jesselson is from Chicago.
Ted Dawson is from Utah.
Kane O'Neil went to a small school in Vermont.
Ryan Greene went to Colorado State.

The TV guys in Missoula:
Dominic Sheldon went to Washington State
Shaun Rainey went to Montana
Brad Peers went to Montana
Vince Bagby went to Montana
Derek Buerkle went I don't know where and don't care. The common thread? The only non-homer is Sheldon. But in the MSU crew, O'Neil and Greene are the only objective ones.

At the Chronicle
Jon Maletz went to Syracuse.
Parker Gabriel went to Wisconsin.

The Billings Gazette staff:

Editor Jeff Welsch went to Arizona State.
Bill Bighaus, I believe went to Rocky but matters not as he retired on Sunday.
Slim Kimmell went to MSU-Billings
Greg Rachac went to MSU-B


Mike Scherting, Joe Kusek and John Letasky, I can't say I know where they went.

Great Falls Tribune
Mansch went to a small school in Minnesota.
Robertson went to Emory and grew up in Virginia.
Steve Schreck went to Purdue.

At the Missoulian
Bob Messeroll went to Wisconsin
Bill Speltz went to Clark College in Iowa
Fritz Neighbor went to Montana
AJ Mazzolini went to Montana

At the Montana Standard
Ron Balaskovitz went to Central Michigan

At the Helena IR
Editor Troy Shockley went to Abilene Christian
Curt Synness not sure but I know it's not UM.
Kyle Sample went to Montana but did not graduate from there.

Up in Kalispell
Joe Terry went to Michigan State
Dillon Tabish went to Montana.

The TV guys in Missoula are by and large Griz. Aside from that, Fritz, AJ (who covers preps exclusively so who cares), Sample, Tabish (who covers preps exclusively and myself are the only Montana grads among Montana sportswriters.
A very wise man once told me, "Don't get into a war of words with someone who buys ink by the barrel." So I should probably stop now...but I won't. In that list of where everyone is from there's lots Montana grads-as to be expected, as well as grads from other schools...except MSU. Since MSU doesn't train journalists it is going to be lacking many advocates in this arena which is an issue UM will never have to deal with. Because it's not just the sports guys, it's the editors, the editors of the editors, the news directors, the publishers-the whole industry. And as Cat Grad has pointed out-even the Chronicle gets in their shots from time to time. So you'll not convince me that there isn't a bias because I have noticed it since I started voraciously reading (and watching) sports writing which was before you could read Dick and Jane and before the Griz were good.



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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by BelgradeBobcat » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:30 pm

All that aside, I think you do a great job Colter.



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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by John K » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:32 pm

Colter_Nuanez wrote:
76er wrote:Scott Mansch formerly worked the Bobcat beat for the Trib and this year (perhaps with Sports Editor duties) has started to hand off Bobcat coverage. Colter even covered one game for the Trib. At any rate, this new Robertson guy is not our guy.
I actually covered about half of the games this season for the Tribune and I wrote two features stories as well.
BelgradeBobcat wrote:
griz5700 wrote:Maybe the problem is in Bozeman...... Ever consider that?
If the sentence read: " "The Montana State University football team wore the Treasure State's outline on its helmets as if to say only one team represents Montana on the football field." don't you think there'd be outrage expressed by some griz fans?

I don't expect griz fans to understand. You've had the state's collective media largely in your corner for all time. But a lot of Bobcat fans have a heightened awareness of the issue. Sometimes maybe we overreact, but the bias is very very real and something we will always have to work against.
The writer implied that's how the Griz felt. The lede had nothing to do with Mark's opinion. The lede was clever and, to be frank, true. The Griz did feel like they were the only team worthy of representing the state entering the game and leaving the field. They said so in not so many words after the game. The words "utter domination" were uttered no less than twice by all six UM people at the post-game press conference, almost all of the comments unsolicited by any reporter. I can't speak for Mark, but as a voracious reader of sportswriting, I believe that was the only point he was trying to convey.

And to whoever asked if I knew Mark, yes I've just met him a couple of times at Bobcat games and I sat next to him on Saturday. He took over for Jesse Geleysne, who covered the Griz for a few years after George Geise left. That's almost the job I took before I landed at the Chronicle. I was very impressed with his grasp of FCS football and the Big Sky Conference for a guy who just moved to Montana 3 months ago. Mark is young, enthusiastic and a good writer. Scott Mansch is a friend of mine and I know Scott really appreciates Mark's good attitude and strong work ethic.

The vast majority of the media in Montana is not from UM as many of you assume. There is not a single UM grad that works in television in Bozeman. No one at the Chronicle is from UM.
ABC/Fox Rob Jesselson is from Chicago.
Ted Dawson is from Utah.
Kane O'Neil went to a small school in Vermont.
Ryan Greene went to Colorado State.

The TV guys in Missoula:
Dominic Sheldon went to Washington State
Shaun Rainey went to Montana
Brad Peers went to Montana
Vince Bagby went to Montana
Derek Buerkle went I don't know where and don't care. The common thread? The only non-homer is Sheldon. But in the MSU crew, O'Neil and Greene are the only objective ones.

At the Chronicle
Jon Maletz went to Syracuse.
Parker Gabriel went to Wisconsin.

The Billings Gazette staff:

Editor Jeff Welsch went to Arizona State.
Bill Bighaus, I believe went to Rocky but matters not as he retired on Sunday.
Slim Kimmell went to MSU-Billings
Greg Rachac went to MSU-B


Mike Scherting, Joe Kusek and John Letasky, I can't say I know where they went.

Great Falls Tribune
Mansch went to a small school in Minnesota.
Robertson went to Emory and grew up in Virginia.
Steve Schreck went to Purdue.

At the Missoulian
Bob Messeroll went to Wisconsin
Bill Speltz went to Clark College in Iowa
Fritz Neighbor went to Montana
AJ Mazzolini went to Montana

At the Montana Standard
Ron Balaskovitz went to Central Michigan

At the Helena IR
Editor Troy Shockley went to Abilene Christian
Curt Synness not sure but I know it's not UM.
Kyle Sample went to Montana but did not graduate from there.

Up in Kalispell
Joe Terry went to Michigan State
Dillon Tabish went to Montana.

The TV guys in Missoula are by and large Griz. Aside from that, Fritz, AJ (who covers preps exclusively so who cares), Sample, Tabish (who covers preps exclusively and myself are the only Montana grads among Montana sportswriters.
As I've already mentioned, my original e-mail prompted an exchange of several very cordial and positive e-mails with Mark, which enhanced my respect for him greatly. He accepted my comments without getting defensive, acknowledged that he could see how his words could have been misinterpreted, and said that going forward he would try to be even more careful about not writing in a manner that could be perceived as being biased. In turn, I acknowledged that I was probably a little overly sensitive, particularly in light of the outcome of the game, and that I now understood the point that he was really trying to make, which is of course that the Griz went into the game feeling like they're "Montana's team", not that Mark necessarily felt that way himself. It's been a very good lesson in the value of discussing a topic in a rational and respectful manner. To quote Mark, from his last e-mail..."Good for us, having adult discussions over email! That doesn't happen a lot with reader emails." My original e-mail was respectful, but also very pointed, but with each subsequent e-mail, we drew closer to understanding each other's perspective.



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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by Cat Grad » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:33 pm

BelgradeBobcat wrote:All that aside, I think you do a great job Colter.
It's Mr. Nuanez, to you young man. You don't have as many grey (or is it gray) hairs as you allude to having... :lol:



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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by Griznationalist » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:34 pm

And all the architects and engineers who build the buildings at UM do sub-standard work on them because they are MSU grads. :roll:



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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by Cat Grad » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:37 pm

[quote][As I've already mentioned, my original e-mail prompted an exchange of several very cordial and positive e-mails with Mark, which enhanced my respect for him greatly. He accepted my comments without getting defensive, acknowledged that he could see how his words could have been misinterpreted, and said that going forward he would try to be even more careful about not writing in a manner that could be perceived as being biased. In turn, I acknowledged that I was probably a little overly sensitive, particularly in light of the outcome of the game, and that I now understood the point that he was really trying to make, which is of course that the Griz went into the game feeling like they're "Montana's team", not that Mark necessarily felt that way himself. It's been a very good lesson in the value of discussing a topic in a rational and respectful manner. To quote Mark, from his last e-mail..."Good for us, having adult discussions over email! That doesn't happen a lot with reader emails." My original e-mail was respectful, but also very pointed, but with each subsequent e-mail, we drew closer to understanding each other's perspective./quote]

I can't believe you've dredged up all this crap from years and years and years and years...again. I'm so happy you've attained closure with Mark...and you've convinced him to start writing great, compelling stories about any and all things MSU related????



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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by BelgradeBobcat » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:38 pm

Griznationalist wrote:And all the architects and engineers who build the buildings at UM do sub-standard work on them because they are MSU grads. :roll:
We'll yeah-some of those buildings over there are pretty ugly... :wink

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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by GRZZ » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:57 pm

I just think it is amusing that some in this thread are implying that the Missoulian having several UM grads as editors and editors of editors and so on, has been a good thing for UM. Have any of you read the Missoulian the last five years or so? The Missoulian broker the alleged gang rape story the day before the semifinal game at SHSU, and went on from there. No amount of UM grads at that paper could have stopped it, nor should they have.

The Kaimin and Bobby Hacuk seemed to fight constantly. The Kaimin was putting light on the arrests during Hauck's tenure well before the Missoulian. All those writers were obviously UM educated...I have yet to read a UM grad who has any problem criticizing UM...

A reporter's job isn't to be the PR arm of anything, the Chronicle should not be the PR arm of MSU. That isn't the way journalism is supposed to work. And heck, the biggest UM homer at the Missoulian is Speltz, and he didn't even go there.


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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by Colter_Nuanez » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:12 pm

GRZZ wrote:I just think it is amusing that some in this thread are implying that the Missoulian having several UM grads as editors and editors of editors and so on, has been a good thing for UM. Have any of you read the Missoulian the last five years or so? The Missoulian broker the alleged gang rape story the day before the semifinal game at SHSU, and went on from there. No amount of UM grads at that paper could have stopped it, nor should they have.

The Kaimin and Bobby Hacuk seemed to fight constantly. The Kaimin was putting light on the arrests during Hauck's tenure well before the Missoulian. All those writers were obviously UM educated...I have yet to read a UM grad who has any problem criticizing UM...

A reporter's job isn't to be the PR arm of anything, the Chronicle should not be the PR arm of MSU. That isn't the way journalism is supposed to work. And heck, the biggest UM homer at the Missoulian is Speltz, and he didn't even go there.
Guess who worked at the Kaimin when Hauck was the coach for the Griz?
BelgradeBobcat wrote:All that aside, I think you do a great job Colter.
Thank you, sir. Your opinion has been crafted over a great many more years than I've been a professional journalist. And you're right, a great many of the newspaper men in the last generation of sportswriters were certainly UM grads. My point was that you can find bias in anything you read. And if it's egregious, that's something worth worrying about.

It's like if you hate a particular writer and you just continue to hate everything he writes just because he wrote it even if it might be good. And vice versa.



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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by Cat Grad » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:13 pm

GRZZ wrote:I just think it is amusing that some in this thread are implying that the Missoulian having several UM grads as editors and editors of editors and so on, has been a good thing for UM. Have any of you read the Missoulian the last five years or so? The Missoulian broker the alleged gang rape story the day before the semifinal game at SHSU, and went on from there. No amount of UM grads at that paper could have stopped it, nor should they have.

The Kaimin and Bobby Hacuk seemed to fight constantly. The Kaimin was putting light on the arrests during Hauck's tenure well before the Missoulian. All those writers were obviously UM educated...I have yet to read a UM grad who has any problem criticizing UM...

A reporter's job isn't to be the PR arm of anything, the Chronicle should not be the PR arm of MSU. That isn't the way journalism is supposed to work. And heck, the biggest UM homer at the Missoulian is Speltz, and he didn't even go there.
The Missoulian is just one of many Lee Enterprise Newspapers (Billings, Butte, Livingstoned, Missoula off the top of my head). The Tribune is one of Gannetts as is this paper:http://www.tallahassee.com/

I've noticed there's a definite difference in tone from region to region and town to town within the rags of certain chains. Fact of the matter is most home town papers accentuate the positive of their community. What happened within your community is and was newsworthy at that point in time. Would you rather read this about your beloved town:http://www.flatheadnewsgroup.com/bigfor ... 22d7a.html



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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by WalkOn79 » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:17 pm

I actually feel this more in local tv news than print media. Most young sportscasters dome even try to hide their glee at a Griz win. Unabashed in their fandom, especially in Great Falls which is what I watch every night at 10:25


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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by John K » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:18 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
[As I've already mentioned, my original e-mail prompted an exchange of several very cordial and positive e-mails with Mark, which enhanced my respect for him greatly. He accepted my comments without getting defensive, acknowledged that he could see how his words could have been misinterpreted, and said that going forward he would try to be even more careful about not writing in a manner that could be perceived as being biased. In turn, I acknowledged that I was probably a little overly sensitive, particularly in light of the outcome of the game, and that I now understood the point that he was really trying to make, which is of course that the Griz went into the game feeling like they're "Montana's team", not that Mark necessarily felt that way himself. It's been a very good lesson in the value of discussing a topic in a rational and respectful manner. To quote Mark, from his last e-mail..."Good for us, having adult discussions over email! That doesn't happen a lot with reader emails." My original e-mail was respectful, but also very pointed, but with each subsequent e-mail, we drew closer to understanding each other's perspective./quote]

I can't believe you've dredged up all this crap from years and years and years and years...again. I'm so happy you've attained closure with Mark...and you've convinced him to start writing great, compelling stories about any and all things MSU related????
Ummm...what??? I really have no idea what that's supposed to mean. Is this more sarcasm? I don't think that's exactly what I said. You may have missed it, but I was trying to make a point about how a conversation that began with one person being quite critical of the other, can end with each person gaining a better understanding of the other's position, if the topic is discussed in a rational and respectful manner. Is that a bad thing in your view?



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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by allcat » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:19 pm

Colter_Nuanez wrote:
GRZZ wrote:I just think it is amusing that some in this thread are implying that the Missoulian having several UM grads as editors and editors of editors and so on, has been a good thing for UM. Have any of you read the Missoulian the last five years or so? The Missoulian broker the alleged gang rape story the day before the semifinal game at SHSU, and went on from there. No amount of UM grads at that paper could have stopped it, nor should they have.

The Kaimin and Bobby Hacuk seemed to fight constantly. The Kaimin was putting light on the arrests during Hauck's tenure well before the Missoulian. All those writers were obviously UM educated...I have yet to read a UM grad who has any problem criticizing UM...

A reporter's job isn't to be the PR arm of anything, the Chronicle should not be the PR arm of MSU. That isn't the way journalism is supposed to work. And heck, the biggest UM homer at the Missoulian is Speltz, and he didn't even go there.
Guess who worked at the Kaimin when Hauck was the coach for the Griz?
BelgradeBobcat wrote:All that aside, I think you do a great job Colter.
Thank you, sir. Your opinion has been crafted over a great many more years than I've been a professional journalist. And you're right, a great many of the newspaper men in the last generation of sportswriters were certainly UM grads. My point was that you can find bias in anything you read. And if it's egregious, that's something worth worrying about.

It's like if you hate a particular writer and you just continue to hate everything he writes just because he wrote it even if it might be good. And vice versa.
While I believe you that we look for our bias's in articles, I also do think it takes a lot of effort to keep bias's out of the stories being written. We all have subconscious thoughts.


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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by Cat Grad » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:22 pm

[quote][/quWhile I believe you that we look for our bias's in articles, I also do think it takes a lot of effort to keep bias's out of the stories being written. We all have subconscious thoughts.ote]

...and there you go with those voices nobody else hears...



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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by CatBlitz » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:43 pm

Just read 4 pages of this. Good lord.


Don't let this distract you from the fact that the griz blew a 22-0 lead.

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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by Colter_Nuanez » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:44 pm

allcat wrote:
Colter_Nuanez wrote:
GRZZ wrote:I just think it is amusing that some in this thread are implying that the Missoulian having several UM grads as editors and editors of editors and so on, has been a good thing for UM. Have any of you read the Missoulian the last five years or so? The Missoulian broker the alleged gang rape story the day before the semifinal game at SHSU, and went on from there. No amount of UM grads at that paper could have stopped it, nor should they have.

The Kaimin and Bobby Hacuk seemed to fight constantly. The Kaimin was putting light on the arrests during Hauck's tenure well before the Missoulian. All those writers were obviously UM educated...I have yet to read a UM grad who has any problem criticizing UM...

A reporter's job isn't to be the PR arm of anything, the Chronicle should not be the PR arm of MSU. That isn't the way journalism is supposed to work. And heck, the biggest UM homer at the Missoulian is Speltz, and he didn't even go there.
Guess who worked at the Kaimin when Hauck was the coach for the Griz?
BelgradeBobcat wrote:All that aside, I think you do a great job Colter.
Thank you, sir. Your opinion has been crafted over a great many more years than I've been a professional journalist. And you're right, a great many of the newspaper men in the last generation of sportswriters were certainly UM grads. My point was that you can find bias in anything you read. And if it's egregious, that's something worth worrying about.

It's like if you hate a particular writer and you just continue to hate everything he writes just because he wrote it even if it might be good. And vice versa.
While I believe you that we look for our bias's in articles, I also do think it takes a lot of effort to keep bias's out of the stories being written. We all have subconscious thoughts.
I agree. And I try my hardest to keep all bias out of each I publish on Bobcat Beat.



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Re: Tribune Cat-Griz game story

Post by Colter_Nuanez » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:45 pm

CatBlitz wrote:Just read 4 pages of this. Good lord.
This made me laugh out loud. And then realize I wasted a good 30 minutes remembering where everyone went to college.



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