Cat-Griz mystery

[[cat_bracket]]

Because they hid their signals from the crowd and the other team they cheated 3 years ago? If they were afraid the story was going to break before the game, why didn't it break after the game? I don't have any proof they didn't cheat, but you don't have any that they did either. Remember, just because you are paranoid, it doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

I'd like to hear your take on the data. You usually have good comments.

That data is very interesting. It makes me think that we should have won the last 5 games. I think that we could have if we hadn't been in a couple of crappy transition years. I think it matchups combined with the importance of the game. Our D front tends to match up well with your O line. This year, it was all about turnovers. A few years ago, the weather was so bad that no one was moving the ball very well. Each game is different and presents it's own matchups. If we do have a line on your play calls, then the coaches should be ashamed they didn't change things. I don't buy it because of different coordinators you guys have had.

So if I asked you before the game, right after MSU gained 568 vs ISU on a 7 degree day, where you think MSU would rank out of the 12 teams you played you'd put them in the bottom half? Of the FCS teams um played only UND had less yards than MSU. Do you think MSU has the second worst offense that um faced this year?
Poly 528
NDSU 475
So. Utah 472 ( a week before MSU)
EWU 461
UCD 394
UNC 356 (w/3rd string QB)
Sac 356
SoDak 317
MSU 314
UND 241

I was talking to some people this week and before the game and figured the griz would not score enough points to win and the cats would win by about 10 or more. The wild card is the emotion of the cat/griz and the turnovers. In reality, 7 turnovers should be more than 34 points. I think if were a better offensive team this year it would have been. 7 turnovers against EWU would have gotten you crushed. I thought this year was an aberration because of the turnovers, but those stats show a pattern. I don't have a solid answer for you.

I appreciate your honesty. I was wondering if anyone would have a solid answer. It is, as the title says, a mystery. Not a conspiracy, a mystery.

[BelgradeBobcat]

We just gained 560 in 7 degree temps the week before. Of the ten FCS teams um played they held us to the second least yards they allowed all year. It isn't depth.

Our offensive production on Saturday was tied to the 7 turnovers-all associated with one player. That's harsh but it's a fact.

The difference between the ISU game and griz game aside from the turnovers is ISU had no idea Bleskin was playing until right before kickoff so they didn't have time to change their game plan. Our offense behaves very differently with Bleskin a the helm compared to Prukop. The griz had a pretty good idea Bleskin was starting and they had the ISU tape on him. They prepared and brilliantly executed their game plan against him.

We got out coached Saturday-no doubt about it.

[Jobu]

Do you think MSU has the second worst offense that um faced this year?

I don't know how anyone could think that. But sometimes football is about match-ups. I know we've been saying all year that UM's defense isn't as good as the Griz fans have been saying. But you know what? Their D-line is damn DAMN good, and our O-Line didn't match up. We also had little to no run game, and we got behind early and had to become one dimensional.

I don't think its a coincidence that um D has done better against us than it does against just about everyone else over the last five years and our O does worse against them than just about everyone else, especially considering their D isn't always that great and our O is usually averaging 450+ per game.

Look, if any of us had the answers, we'd be coaching the Cats.

I just think that the Griz coaches always have a good game plan for the Cats. I don't know that you can say the opposite is true.

[CatRowdy]

Look, if any of us had the answers, we'd be coaching the Cats.

I have to disagree.... obviously the Coaches don't have the answer!

[[cat_bracket]]

Do you think MSU has the second worst offense that um faced this year?

I don't know how anyone could think that. But sometimes football is about match-ups. I know we've been saying all year that UM's defense isn't as good as the Griz fans have been saying. But you know what? Their D-line is damn DAMN good, and our O-Line didn't match up. We also had little to no run game, and we got behind early and had to become one dimensional.

I don't think its a coincidence that um D has done better against us than it does against just about everyone else over the last five years and our O does worse against them than just about everyone else, especially considering their D isn't always that great and our O is usually averaging 450+ per game.

Look, if any of us had the answers, we'd be coaching the Cats.

I just think that the Griz coaches always have a good game plan for the Cats. I don't know that you can say the opposite is true.

Defensively they've had five of the 15 best game plans vs us. Of the 40 BSC games they've had as many good game plans as the rest of the teams combined. What are the odds of that and why don't they have similar success vs other teams?

[LTown Cat]

This is odd indeed. In fact, incredibly odd. However, I don't think there is a conspiracy going on.

The one major difference I notice year in and year out in this game between MSU and UM is attitude. I think that Ash pushes so hard for our guys to be good guys that it hurts us in this game. Watch the game when it is replayed. UM's guys are constantly pushing, jawing, shoving, etc after the plays are dead. If I didn't have any ties to the game and watched it I would say that UM definitely hates MSU. Watching MSU it seems they are just out there to play another game.

I'm not saying I like this--I actually like that our guys are maybe a little more classy--however, in these big rivalry games I'm not sure that works out so well.

[Bobcat Sig]

This is odd indeed. In fact, incredibly odd. However, I don't think there is a conspiracy going on.

The one major difference I notice year in and year out in this game between MSU and UM is attitude. I think that Ash pushes so hard for our guys to be good guys that it hurts us in this game. Watch the game when it is replayed. UM's guys are constantly pushing, jawing, shoving, etc after the plays are dead. If I didn't have any ties to the game and watched it I would say that UM definitely hates MSU. Watching MSU it seems they are just out there to play another game.

I'm not saying I like this--I actually like that our guys are maybe a little more classy--however, in these big rivalry games I'm not sure that works out so well.

I'd hug you, if I could.

But seriously, you nail it. I bemoaned this attitude in another post in the melee that followed the game on Saturday. Your thoughts echo mine. Cat-griz IS NOT and never will be 'just another game.' It shouldn't be coached as such and it certainly shouldn't be talked about as such. On one hand, as a program, you continually tout a philosophy of "Beat The Griz" day in day out, as Ash did at the Pep Rally and in the media and then on the other hand, you say, "We prepare for this game just like any other," what the eff kind of mentality is that!?

All bets are off for Cat-griz. It should be prepared for as such.

[09griz]

Do you think MSU has the second worst offense that um faced this year?

I don't know how anyone could think that. But sometimes football is about match-ups. I know we've been saying all year that UM's defense isn't as good as the Griz fans have been saying. But you know what? Their D-line is damn DAMN good, and our O-Line didn't match up. We also had little to no run game, and we got behind early and had to become one dimensional.

I don't think its a coincidence that um D has done better against us than it does against just about everyone else over the last five years and our O does worse against them than just about everyone else, especially considering their D isn't always that great and our O is usually averaging 450+ per game.

Look, if any of us had the answers, we'd be coaching the Cats.

I just think that the Griz coaches always have a good game plan for the Cats. I don't know that you can say the opposite is true.

Defensively they've had five of the 15 best game plans vs us. Of the 40 BSC games they've had as many good game plans as the rest of the teams combined. What are the odds of that and why don't they have similar success vs other teams?

1. Montana plays it's best football in Nov. and Dec.
2. We F****** HATE the cats.

...mystery solved

[GRZZ]

This is crazy.

A) If anyone, a coach, a player, a fan, an administrator, had ANY legitimate proof of signals being stolen, it would have made the news. Why would they sit on it? Why wouldn't they even anonymously tell the Chronicle or even Coulter? A chance to further embarrass their biggest rival when they were already going through a bunch of turmoil... Come on guys. You can't be serious. If there was any merit to this, it would be news.

B) If all of the conspiracy theories are true, and as is being implied in this thread, the Griz steal MSU's signals every time they play, that is your coaches fault. Seriously. If Ash legitimately thought the Griz were stealing his signs, he should have changed them up...teams change their signals all the time. It isn't that complicated.

What's your take on the data I provided? Is um just a bad matchup for MSU? Is MSU just tight? Is it just a coincidence? I'm interested in hearing anyone's explanation.

Coaching?

I say that with the caveat that Ash is the best thing to ever happen to your program, and people wanting to run him off are crazy.

This isn't just another game, and I don't get why that is the motto. I know there are likely times Griz players have said it in the past, and I don't believe they really thought that. There is nothing wrong with saying beating your rival is one of your goals for the season, and declaring that out loud. The rivalry is what makes our programs more special than say a Weber or a Portland State. College football is all about rivalries...

MSU just seems to play tight when there is more on the line. I would be curious if one of the conspiracy guys on this thread would go back and compare the Cats' stats in all playoff/playoffs on the line games under Ash with their regular season stats. I bet you see the same discrepancy. If some Cat fans want to continue to claim the cheating, that is fine. Adds some spice to the rivalry. But if you really want to honestly discuss your program, I think the net needs to be cast a little wider in the late season than just the Griz games.

Does that help?

[catatonic1]

I'm betting some of the Griz coaches watch all the film all year long to look for tendancies.....
This is the last game of every regular season and all the prior games have been televised...
Why would the spend a ton of time preping for this game?
Because that is their job and this game is very, very important to them


as far as the the cat coaches maybe not so much?

[catdaddy7]

This is odd indeed. In fact, incredibly odd. However, I don't think there is a conspiracy going on.

The one major difference I notice year in and year out in this game between MSU and UM is attitude. I think that Ash pushes so hard for our guys to be good guys that it hurts us in this game. Watch the game when it is replayed. UM's guys are constantly pushing, jawing, shoving, etc after the plays are dead. If I didn't have any ties to the game and watched it I would say that UM definitely hates MSU. Watching MSU it seems they are just out there to play another game.

I'm not saying I like this--I actually like that our guys are maybe a little more classy--however, in these big rivalry games I'm not sure that works out so well.

I'd hug you, if I could.

But seriously, you nail it. I bemoaned this attitude in another post in the melee that followed the game on Saturday. Your thoughts echo mine. Cat-griz IS NOT and never will be 'just another game.' It shouldn't be coached as such and it certainly shouldn't be talked about as such. On one hand, as a program, you continually tout a philosophy of "Beat The Griz" day in day out, as Ash did at the Pep Rally and in the media and then on the other hand, you say, "We prepare for this game just like any other," what the eff kind of mentality is that!?

All bets are off for Cat-griz. It should be prepared for as such.

I think Ash is trying to say that the coaching staff is very thorough in their preparation week in and week out . I remember an interview with Bobby Hauck
when questioned about the brawl he gave a simple two word response, "It's personal". At the time I was incensed by that remark thinking he was just being a
smartass but now as much as it pains me to say he was sending a message to the players to match his intensity and for the most part they always did. I truly
wish that Ash would show a little more outward enthusiasm towards his players and the game. If he did I feel it would be very motivating to the players!

[HelenaCat95]

This is odd indeed. In fact, incredibly odd. However, I don't think there is a conspiracy going on.

The one major difference I notice year in and year out in this game between MSU and UM is attitude. I think that Ash pushes so hard for our guys to be good guys that it hurts us in this game. Watch the game when it is replayed. UM's guys are constantly pushing, jawing, shoving, etc after the plays are dead. If I didn't have any ties to the game and watched it I would say that UM definitely hates MSU. Watching MSU it seems they are just out there to play another game.

I'm not saying I like this--I actually like that our guys are maybe a little more classy--however, in these big rivalry games I'm not sure that works out so well.

I'd hug you, if I could.

But seriously, you nail it. I bemoaned this attitude in another post in the melee that followed the game on Saturday. Your thoughts echo mine. Cat-griz IS NOT and never will be 'just another game.' It shouldn't be coached as such and it certainly shouldn't be talked about as such. On one hand, as a program, you continually tout a philosophy of "Beat The Griz" day in day out, as Ash did at the Pep Rally and in the media and then on the other hand, you say, "We prepare for this game just like any other," what the eff kind of mentality is that!?

All bets are off for Cat-griz. It should be prepared for as such.

Exactly. Football (especially in the trenches) can be described as a bar room fight. We have some tremendous athletes in these positions, but not necessarily bar room brawlers (with a couple of exceptions....I think Catalano and Sheridan can be those guys). We need to play THROUGH the whistle. We need to be picking through the pile and helping our guys up to the detriment of the other team. We need to play pissed off. I will gladly take an occassional personal foul or unsportsmanlike if it's in defense of our fellow players. That's just my opinion.

[GrizNation02]

Hmmmm. Maybe that whole they're stealing our signals really does have some merit?

Oh man...thanks I needed that. Funniest thing I have read in a long time. Pathetic, but funny.

[GrizNation02]

I understand that sometimes you just have a bad day at the office, like 7 turnovers is not a good day. I understand that the griz have a good defense. What I don't understand was that game 3 years ago in Bozeman where our offense would come to the line, read their defense, then turn toward our sideline, watch the play call (which the griz were watching too), then we would change our formation based on their defense and then they would change their defense based on what we called. You don't get that from game film that is traded between teams. That is someone in the stands recording our play calling, then recording the play, then analyzing the tapes and creating a game plan. Cheaters!!! Hate to say it. But it is true and they know it.

Wait...no I am sorry, THIS is the funniest thing I have read in a long time.

[GoCats18]

One thing I laugh at is that a few years ago all we heard was that if Chase Reynolds doesn't fumble twice in the red zone, griz win. Well I guess we should say if Belskin doesnt turn the ball over 7 times, we win. Haha!! Amazing how it is so different when it is their team, yet it really isn't any different.

[GrizNation02]

One thing I laugh at is that a few years ago all we heard was that if Chase Reynolds doesn't fumble twice in the red zone, griz win. Well I guess we should say if Belskin doesnt turn the ball over 7 times, we win. Haha!! Amazing how it is so different when it is their team, yet it really isn't any different.

Saying a guy turns it over inside the 5 twice in a close scoring game may have affected the outcome and saying a team is stealing your signals are two entirely different things. Cats forced those turnovers just like the Griz did. Doesn't mean they knew the play call.

[GoCats18]

I guess 20/20 is doing a story about the cheating inside the UM program like the stealing of EWU's playbook and our signals. Crazy timing.

[John K]

This is odd indeed. In fact, incredibly odd. However, I don't think there is a conspiracy going on.

The one major difference I notice year in and year out in this game between MSU and UM is attitude. I think that Ash pushes so hard for our guys to be good guys that it hurts us in this game. Watch the game when it is replayed. UM's guys are constantly pushing, jawing, shoving, etc after the plays are dead. If I didn't have any ties to the game and watched it I would say that UM definitely hates MSU. Watching MSU it seems they are just out there to play another game.

I'm not saying I like this--I actually like that our guys are maybe a little more classy--however, in these big rivalry games I'm not sure that works out so well.

I'd hug you, if I could.

But seriously, you nail it. I bemoaned this attitude in another post in the melee that followed the game on Saturday. Your thoughts echo mine. Cat-griz IS NOT and never will be 'just another game.' It shouldn't be coached as such and it certainly shouldn't be talked about as such. On one hand, as a program, you continually tout a philosophy of "Beat The Griz" day in day out, as Ash did at the Pep Rally and in the media and then on the other hand, you say, "We prepare for this game just like any other," what the eff kind of mentality is that!?

All bets are off for Cat-griz. It should be prepared for as such.

I think Ash is trying to say that the coaching staff is very thorough in their preparation week in and week out . I remember an interview with Bobby Hauck
when questioned about the brawl he gave a simple two word response, "It's personal". At the time I was incensed by that remark thinking he was just being a
smartass but now as much as it pains me to say he was sending a message to the players to match his intensity and for the most part they always did. I truly
wish that Ash would show a little more outward enthusiasm towards his players and the game. If he did I feel it would be very motivating to the players!

I agree...I don't necessarily agree with Ash's "it's just another game" approach for Cat-Griz. It does seem to me that UM has generally played with a bit more intensity than MSU during the Ash era.

[John K]

This is a great thread. It probably goes too deep for most of our posters, but the numbers are flat out staggering. Below is a list of what um was allowing in points and total yards going into Cat-grizz and what they held us to, along with what we were averaging.

2014
grizz avg points allowed 22, held MSU to 7, MSU was averaging 41. um +15, MSU -34
grizz avg yards allowed 375, held MSU to 314, MSU was averaging 495. um +61, MSU -181

2013
grizz allow 25, MSU scores 14, MSU averaged 34. um +11, MSU -20
grizz allow 370, MSU gets 272, MSU averaged 425. um +98, MSU -153

2012
grizz allow 27, MSU scores 16, MSU avg 35. um +11, MSU -19
grizz allow 385, MSU gains 354, MSU avg 415. um +31, MSU -61

2011
grizz allow 21, MSU scores 10, MSU avg 33. um +11, MSU -23
grizz allow 330, MSU gains 250, MSU avg 430. um +80, MSU -180

2010
grizz allow 22, MSU scores 21, MSU avg 34. um +1, MSU -13
grizz allow 290, MSU gains 318*, MSU avg 460. um -28, MSU -142

*we lost 40 yards of offense on a bad snap that went for a safety. With that um would be +12 and MSU would be -182.

Thanks to both you and TomCat for bringing this to light, and doing the supporting research. These numbers are really very stunning...they should definitely gives us some food for thought.

[LimpKitty]

It is obvious they cheat and steal signs, they have a video guy that films our games and writes down hand signals so they have an advantage at the end of the year. I heard they keep the same guy so it is easier to keep quiet and not many people know about this going on.