Pacers/Fan Brawl...

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Pacers/Fan Brawl...

Post by El_Gato » Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:28 am

I know this isn't a college topic, but I am literally stunned at the reaction by the talking heads on ESPN following Friday nights debacle at the Pacers/Pistons game...

The morons in the NBA shootaround, or whatever they call it, left me f*cking speechless!! Stephen A. Smith (who is DEFINITELY the most arrogant sports commentator of all time), Greg Anthony, some token white guy, and John Saunders spent the bulk of their time DEFENDING Ron Artest and his Pacer teammates who physically attacked fans in the stands. Artest stated after the game that his actions were "self-defense"...

Let's see, Artest gives a flagrant foul to Ben Wallace in a game in which the Pacers lead by 15 with less than a minute to play. Wallace shoves him, the benches clear... ESPN didn't explain what happened after that but I figure both Wallace & Artest are ejected at that point. For some reason, Ron Artest ends up laying on the press table at courtside, supposedly doing an interview when a fan throws a PLASTIC CUP of water or beer on him. I'm pretty sure from watching the tape that he couldn't possibly have seen WHO actually threw it because he's laying on the table, looking up toward the ceiling and has his hands/arms folded over his face. Anyway, when the cup hits him, he leaps up and dives into the stands & starts trying to pummel what looks to be some scrawny, 20-something year old kid who probably goes about 150 lbs. Another of Artest's teammates dives into the fray and starts flailing at fans as well, and then the whole thing turns into pandemonium... Later we see Artest punch a fan who runs out onto the floor squarely in the face. Then we see Jermaine O'Neal come FLYING in and deliver the biggest haymaker I've ever seen to some other guys face! The Pacers are eventually steered down the tunnel toward their dressing room by various coaches/security personnel and are doused with every liquid sold in the Palace...

OK, this debate is going to rage for a long time, I believe, and I know I will offer MANY opinions/thoughts on it, but this was my initial, gut reaction:

First: Artest and any teammate that attacked a fan should be immediately suspended and for a PAINFUL amount of time. Self-defence? From a cup of water or beer hitting him? Give me a f*cking break. I'm not forgiving or encouraging ANY of the fan activity in this incident, but if a guy hits me with a rock & I blow him away with an AK-47, am I in the right? Does the fact that Ron Artest comes into every arena as a hated man because he's such a thug have any weight here? Does the fact that he then went and sprawled out on the Pistons press table for an interview (essentially dissing the home team, their arena, and their fans) have any weight here? Does the fact that through his play and antics every night he essentially "gives the finger" to every opponent and their fans have anything to do with this? Does this kind of crap happen to Tim Duncan, LeBron James, or Shaq? Did it ever happen to guys like MJ, the Admiral, Magic, Bird, or Dr. J?

Second: Any fan who broke the law should be prosecuted as fully as they would be if this took place in a bar or a restaurant etc. I will not support any fan breaking the law. And even if the fan who threw the cup of water didn't actually break the law and can't be prosecuted for anything, he should be banned from the Palace for a long, long time, if not forever.

Third: The dipshiznits on ESPN spent about 90% of their time regarding this incident DEFENDING Artest and his teammates & criticizing the fans; essentially saying that the fans "got what they deserved". I'm sorry, but that is the biggest bunch of horsesh*t I've heard in sports for a very long time. Again, NO FAN should be allowed to throw ANYTHING at a player, but the Pacers reaction to it was so far beyond reason, it is clearly indefensable. I would've expected at least ONE of the morons to criticize the Pacers reaction, but it didn't happen. Joe Dumars stated that players are professionals and that pro's needed to respond like pro's to stuff like this and walk away; the idiots on ESPN then proceeded to disagree with Dumars for his statement.

All in all, this, combined with other recent fan/player incidents, leads me to believe, as Sports Illustrated puts it, that the "Apocolypse is upon us..."

Much, much more to follow as we all weigh in on this disturbing incident AND trend...
Last edited by El_Gato on Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.


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Post by WYCAT » Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:31 am

Thanks for the post El Gato. I did not catch that last night. I will have to get caught up today and see what they have to say now. I agree with your assessment of Ron Artest and Stephen A. Smith. I can't watch a full 1/2 hour of that guy talking and Artest is a piece of trash. His antics throughout his career have been terrible. No way from what you described should they have been saying what they were. I used to really like the NBA but over the past 5-10 years it has regressed to a pickup game style of uselessness that I am not interested in. This just confirms my opinion that it isn't worth wasting time on.



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Post by rtb » Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:38 pm

My thoughts.....The commentators last night had no clue, that was insane. I used to love the NBA, but it has really started to slide the last few years. It is hard to cheer for a team when the players change cities every other year. With that in mind I think the NBA should encourage this type of behavior. They finally got me to care about the NBA for about 1/2 an hour last night. That is more attention from me then they normally get......Actually, I just see this as one more reason to follow college hoops and disregard the NBA.



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Post by Cat-theotherwhitemeat » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:01 pm

Indiana's Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson, and Detroit's Ben Wallace were suspended indefinitely by the NBA on Saturday for taking part in one of the ugliest brawls in U.S. sports history, a fight with fans that commissioner David Stern called "shocking, repulsive and inexcusable."


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Post by Cat-theotherwhitemeat » Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:49 pm

Update.....

Ron Artest was suspended for the rest of the season Sunday, and two of his Indiana Pacers (news) teammates must miss a total of 55 games for fighting with fans.

Overall, the NBA issued some of the harshest penalties in its history by banning nine players for more than 140 games. Artest's suspension is the strongest ever levied for a fight during a game.

Indiana's Stephen Jackson was suspended for 30 games and Jermaine O'Neal for 25. Detroit's Ben Wallace — whose shove of Artest after a foul led to the five-minute fracas — drew a six-game ban, while Pacers guard Anthony Johnson got five games.

Four players — Indiana's Reggie Miller, and Detroit's Chauncey Billups, Elden Campbell and Derrick Coleman — were suspended one game apiece for leaving the bench during the initial fracas.

All of the suspensions are without pay. Artest will lose approximately $5 million in salary, while O'Neal's suspension will cost him nearly 25 percent of his $14.8 million salary for the current season.


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Post by BWahlberg » Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:04 pm

I hope too that both the fans and the NBA players are charged with assault.

The NBA has rapidly become a joke. In fact, it's hardly even the game of basketball anymore. It's a ball-hog, look at me, self centered game now. They should rename it to Giveittomeball. Shooting percentage is at an all-time low. Players don't believe in practice. Players also don't like to use the fundamentals that make basketball a fun sport, such as screens, passing around, getting assists, playing as a team. If you want to watch people still play basketball as a TEAM, watch college or the WNBA, turn off the NBA.

A lot of NBA players are thugs, look at Artest. Sports athletes are supposed to be role models, there are hardly any NBA players I'd want my (soon to be) kid to say, "I want to be just like him!" As for Artest...kick him out of the NBA, for good. Send a message, make a stand.



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Post by El_Gato » Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:11 pm

I agree in general, but as usual, there are exceptions...

I felt that last season the Pistons won the title because they played LIKE A TEAM. Another very good TEAM is the San Antonio Spurs; not to mention they are led by the classiest MVP of any league, Tim Duncan. The Spurs play as unselfishly as any team in the league; at times, to their own detriment...

I agree, however, that the NBA is GARBAGE. I had very high hopes for Carmelo Anthony, then he tries to board a pre-season flight with weed in his carry-on. By the way, how many of you knew the marijuana DOES NOT COUNT AGAINST YOU IN THE NBA? I'm serious; marijauna is not a banned substance in the NBA. The players association DEMANDED that and got it during one of their last negotiations. And David Stern wonders why the NBA is in free-fall?

Or how about Allen Iverson jerseys being the best selling uni prior to LeBron? Are you kidding me? That scumbag is a role model to the thugs, bangers, and gangsters and his stuff is #1? Need I say more? Oh, how about the fact that this worthless human being represented our country at the Olympics?

I'm sorry, that's all I can stomach for tonight. GOOD JOB David Stern. The league should make it clear that the next player that does this will be banned for life!

Oh, one other thing; what a great job of back-pedalling by Stephen A(sshole) Smith and Greg Anthony on ESPN tonight... Those are a couple of sorry-a$$ed, BIASED, RACIST idiots...


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Post by Sportin' Life » Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:23 am

Gato...I don't know what Stephen A Smith was saying before but tonight he did have a point about the suspensions. He said that Stephen Jackson should have been given as bad or worse than Artest. Artest went after a fan that threw something at him. Jackson just charged into the stands when the fight started and started throwing haymakers. Also he seemed to connect better than Artest. Anyways, I thought his point was valid.

About Iverson...I've always liked the way that he plays...I think he is tough. I've never seen him engaged in any thuggery....maybe I've missed it. He went to the olympics when many NBA players wouldn't. I guess their off seasons and side projects are too important. Or they don't want to clean themselves up and pass the strict Olympic drug test. And at least we know Iverson is at least that clean.



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Post by El_Gato » Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:45 am

Sportin' Life wrote:Also he seemed to connect better than Artest.
So, Stephen Jackson is worse than Artest, at least in part, because his AIM is better? This is another PERFECT example of the lack of thought by talking heads like Stephen A; he states that Jackson should get a worse suspension than Artest? Then what about Jermaine O'Neal? He comes in and totally SUCKER-PUNCHES a fan who isn't anywhere near him nor having any interaction with O'Neal at all. Why didn't Smith want the same punishment for O'Neal? I'll tell you why, because he likes O'Neal and O'Neal is a superstar. Jackson is a thug and guys like Smith think they're "scoring points" with the public by calling out a guy like Jackson. On top of being an arrogant idiot, Smith shows he's a hypocrit as well.

Trust me when I tell you I was stunned late Friday night as I listened to Smith, Anthony, and Saunders on ESPN actually spend most of their time DEFENDING Artest & the other Pacers' actions. Their comments stunned me and offended me almost as much as the brawl itself...

Nice job of backtracking on Sunday by S.A. Smith & Greg Anthony when they finally realized how WRONG they were initially. The fact that they initially defended the actions of the Pacers shows you their TRUE mentality.

On to "the Answer", Allen Iverson. Let's see, gets arrested/convicted for gang-banging before college, routinely disrespects his coaches, is a RENOWNED slacker when it comes to practice, has been fined/sanctioned by his team on numerous occasions, throws/locks his wife out of his house in her underwear, breaks into a strangers apartment WITH A GUN while "hunting down" his wife, overall a very selfish player whose only concern is getting HIS next shot. By the way, did you actually WATCH any of the Olympics? Very few of the American players took any interest on the defensive end, LEAST OF ALL was AI...

I'm sure I'm forgetting some other incidents, but just based on the above, you're right, Sportin', Iverson's a model citizen... FOR THE NBA.
Last edited by El_Gato on Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by BWahlberg » Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:00 pm

Here's some other reasons why the NBA is ruining basketball.

They were talking about a few things to make the game more "exciting"

1. Getting rid of the 3 pt shot until there was something like 4 or 5 min. left in the half.

2. Making the basketball rims wider, so shooting % would go up with more made shots.

The NBA has become star based and young fans don't care about the team, they care about the player. Also I'm hearing more and more arguments about Kobe & LeBron being better ball players than MJ. Well there's a few things Jordan has done in his basketball career that neither Kobe & LeBron can ever do. Win the College Nat. Championship. Basketball has become so centered around getting these high profile kids they grab them right out of High School, another great message to america's youth, skip college, its ok!!



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Post by SonomaCat » Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:22 pm

I am pretty happy with the severity of the sentences handed down, and I hope they aren't changed on appeal. That is a good, strong message to send to players to remind them that they do still have to act like decent human beings every so often, even if someone is "dissing" them.

I saw John Saunders on the Sports Reporters last night, and what he said probably explains a lot of what I also thought was a confusing reaction by the ESPN guys the night of the fight. He said that he was wrong to place all of the blame on the fans that night, but that he was speaking from the perspective of a former athlete who had been in that situation and could relate to the anger of the players. He said that after he had time to reflect upon it, he realized that his view had been biased, and he was much more upset with the players reactions than he had been.

We have to remember that the ESPN guys are all either former players themselves, or are friends with many of the players, so their natural reaction will be to see things from that perspective. Since what we saw was recorded right after the game, they were all swept up in the emotions of the surreal event, and hadn't really had time to get a proper perspective. Similarly, if you would have heard my reaction as it was happening (sitting on a barstool at the 21st Amendment in San Francisco), people would have assumed that I was calling for all of the players to be executed -- that was my perspective at that moment as a fan (who doesn't really care for the NBA or its players to begin with).

As for AI -- there is no player in the league I would rather watch. Every game I have seen him play (including a couple in person) he is nonstop hustle and defense, and he is now developing into a great assist man as well. He may have cornrows and lots of tats, and he may have had some run-ins with the law in the past (which shouldn't be a life sentence in terms of public opinion, lest we be hypocrites and treat him differently than Junior Adams), but I've really come to respect AI. During the Olympics this summer, he was the voice of reason and by far the most diplomatic spokesperson for the team. I couldn't stand him out of college (I can't stand Georgetown, which biased me), but I really like him now as a player. I don't like the NBA in general, but I really don't think AI should be the prototype of what is wrong with the league. Anytime you have somebody that overachieves in a league of giants like he does, you have to respect him.



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Post by El_Gato » Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:31 pm

So, you'd rather watch & put the NBA's reputation in AI's hands rather than the likes of a Tim Duncan or David Robinson or Julius Erving?

Point being the league needs to do a better job of "glorifying" guys who are great players AND great men. Just like the NFL and ESPN better soon figure out that Ray Lewis, although an awesome player, turns OFF more people than he turns on and stop using him as one of their "front-men"...

Note: I never said AI wasn't a great player. Best one-on-one player in the league today, which is the biggest reason he'll never wear a ring...


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Post by SonomaCat » Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:26 pm

El_Gato wrote:Or how about Allen Iverson jerseys being the best selling uni prior to LeBron? Are you kidding me? That scumbag is a role model to the thugs, bangers, and gangsters and his stuff is #1? Need I say more? Oh, how about the fact that this worthless human being represented our country at the Olympics?
From this little blurb, I didn't get the impression that we were comparing AI to Tim Duncan, David Robinson, or Julius Erving (who had some scandals himself). Of course I think the three guys above are great spokespersons for the league. But then, that wasn't really your original point, was it? I just disagree with your characterization of AI as per above.



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Post by jagur1 » Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:57 pm

E;;;I'd take Kobe one on one against AI anyday. And he has a ring how do you explain that?


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Post by Sportin' Life » Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:59 pm

Gato...I think you missed some of the point. I was saying that their reasoning for going on the attack was different. Artest was retaliating for a beer thrown on his face. Jackson was jumping into a melee presumably to help out his teammate. I think it is arguable which is the better motive, but the point wasn't just that Jackson threw a better punch. Of course I don't really care who gets what fine or suspension. I was just saying that Smith had a point that jumping in to beat up everyone standing around your teammate may be less noble than retaliating for the cup of beer in the face.



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Post by Sportin' Life » Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:02 pm

jagur1 wrote:E;;;I'd take Kobe one on one against AI anyday. And he has a ring how do you explain that?
Shaq



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Post by jagur1 » Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:05 pm

Sportin' Life. I agree. Just wanted to point out AI isn't the best one on one player in the NBA.


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Post by BWahlberg » Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:44 am

So far Kobe also doesn't have many assists, or play good defense.

If any of you want to get a good grasp on the NBA mentality, read Rick Reilley's article on the Olympic Team, and their hubris. It was a few months back, but a great article.



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Post by SonomaCat » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:45 pm

This guy makes some good points. Despite how much I agree with Stern's punishments for the players, this article pretty much hits it right on the head -- I enjoyed watching it, and I am actually enjoying the punishment phase as well:

http://slate.com/id/2110079/



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Post by El_Gato » Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:56 pm

I'll tell you one of the things I thought as I watched it; when I lived in Seattle for a couple of years, the company I worked for had some very nice season tickets at Seattle Center Coliseum (now Key Arena), which were about 8 rows behind the press table, right at half court.

I attended a number of games there and had an event like last Friday's taken place, my seats would have placed me squarely in the middle of the fracas. Here's my problem with what happened & why I have a hard time being as "jovial" about this as bay & the author; what if I'd been there with my 9 & 11 year old daughters? What if we got caught in the middle of that mess? Would you be laughing then, bay? You think the kid who Artest attacked (mistakenly, I might add) found the whole thing amusing? And what if one of those haymakers by Jackson or O'Neal had permanently injured someone? Would you be yucking it up still?

Sorry, but I have a hard time finding much "entertainment" in that ugly scene. I hope the next time one of these incidents happens, the idiot author finds himself in the crosshairs...


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